1. Democracy and Freedom are not same thing. Democracy just means that people get to say in the actions of the government. Democracy doesn't make you free, and freedom doesn't make you democratic. In fact the world in general was much freer before democracy came about. Hong Kong and Monaco, 2 of the freest countries in the world, are dictatorships.

2. Freedom of the press is only 1 tiny aspect of freedom, which is why I question why you are using it as a measurement. We aren't planning on going overseas to start a newspaper.
No you didn't. You gave a list of the "most democratic" countries. According to the page you linked to, part of the rating is attributing a score to the strength of the civil service. That is, the number of people employed by the government. In other words, the list is backwards, the ones at the top of the list are the least free, because the governments in those countries steal more of your money in order to employ more people to create regulations and red tape.

Libertarianism, in practice, means reducing the size of government. And you are basically trying to tell us that countries where the government controls 50% or more of the economy are libertarian. They aren't.

I never said democracy and freedom are the same thing, did I. I just gave a list of libertarian counties who are most democratic. The most important 2 lists are economic freedom and freedom of the press. Freedom of the press, democratic and economic freedom are the most used lists when researching countries based on freedom.

Of course those lists tell us a lot about freedom in the world. Are you saying those lists don't mean anything and a country like Ghana could be actually more free as for instance Sweden?

And by the way, the freedom of the press list is usually used as an indicator for how much freedom of speech there is in a country. Which indicator can you give me then? Your newspaper example is ridiculous. We are talking about individual citizens here, who can express themselves in any way they want via various forms of media. Like questioning the government, etc.. This is widely considered as an indicator of having freedom to express oneself.

Yes, that is what I am saying. In fact I am 100% sure that Ghana is more free than Sweden. Not as safe maybe, but definitely more free.

For instance in Sweden, if you want to paint your house, you need to get a painting license, and you need government permission. You don't have to do that in Ghana.

Also, the government steals half of your money each year.

I already gave you an indicator. Government revenue as a % of GDP.

Ahahahaha.. That is your only indication of freedom? You think you're more free in a low-tax country where people arrest you for speaking out against the government as in a country with higher tax? You rather live in a low-tax country where people are regulated by the government what they can say/write in media? A low-tax country where people have little to no political voice/say is more free as a high-tax country? That is your freedom?

Ok... I'm done here. No point in arguing. I totally disagree. LOL

I'm gonna stop derailing this thread in some pointless argument. I hope the worldwide freedom ranking lists helped a little to make a choice where to live.

Like I said, you don't understand the topic of this thread. Thanks for enlightening us tho.

The reason this thread is endlessly derailing is OP hasn't specified what he's looking for. Not to say they're mutually exclusive by any means, but the real world outcome is that often a high score in one libertarian value pushes down scores on another. What do you want to do OP? Pay as little tax as possible? Marry your boyfriend? (Or do you care that other people can't?) Walk down the street with a beer? Describe your utopia and we'll be much better able to find it for you.

This is a good compliation index (I didn't see anyone link it yet but only skimmed so might be wrong):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_o..._Liberty_Index

First 4 words of OP post. This takes away much of the ambiguity imo. For example, much of western europe and all of scandinavia is right out.

Not to me. If you think that removes the ambiguity I suspect you're projecting your own philosophy on him. There are plenty of self-described libertarians who would put places like Scandinavia near the top of any list due to their position on civil liberties stuff, despite failing on the tax stuff. OP needs to clarify which stuff is more/less important to him.

Ok, since this thread is dead I thought I'd kick it off.

I spent a couple weeks in Europe living out of a backpack and basically doing a big pub crawl. Here are some of my takes on where I went from a libertarian point of view.

England:
Betting shops on every corner, cheap beer, pretty large variety of dairy, some public urination.

Amsterdam
Drugs for sale, women for sale, best english on the trip.

Ireland:
Betting shops, crazy amounts of meat/dairy, widespread public urination

Those are some things I remember from being in each place a little under a week living out of hostels and being hungover/drunk the entire time.

ninja edit: Something else I noticed in england and in dublin were less cops and shops tended to hire a couple of big black dudes to man the front door as security. The bobby's in england seemed totally inept and would be better suited as wal-mart greeters if they were 40 years older. The garda in Ireland looked like they meant business. Not to be ****ed with. Also, people in Ireland were a little more confrontational and physically aggressive. Nothing to be worried about tho.

Really??

Also public urination is not legal in the UK (or in Ireland either I'm sure), it just an unavoidable consequence of heavy drinking.

Well, the beer wasn't cheep I guess. But it was much less expensive in relation to other things I thought.

http://www.heritage.org/Index/ranking

another list

with reasoning

Hong Kong is solid on economic freedom, but what about other types of freedom?

Man I don't get why some folks were hating on breadnbutter. He was just trying to help.

I enjoyed reading through those lists btw.

The reason we were giving breadandbutter a hard time is because
A) He doesn't understand the concept of libertarianism.
B) OP specifically asked for personal experience because he can find his own "freedom" lists on the internets since that is how he's talking to us in the first place.

Imagine asking on a message board about peoples experiences with motorcycles and somebody starts putting up lists of cars. You say, no I wanted a bike and they say cars have 4 wheels they're better, here's some more car lists... No I want a bike.... Cars have ac and heaters and protect you from the rain, they're better. Heres some more car lists, and, oh btw, I highlighted a specific car in each list but don't notice that because i'm just stating facts not opinions.

seriously, what are you on about? breadandbutter gave good general lists of countries with the most freedom. the lists are general freedom rankings for every country in the world. and they are good indicators of freedom in the world, something OP was asking for.

can I ask, are you american by any chance? seems to be because all i see here is an American getting upset that his beloved country isn't doing that well in freedom compared to other western countries. it seems to me you personally don't want those lists to be true, so you make up your own definition of freedom. those countries in those lists are widely recognized as the most free countries in the world and the lists are offical lists used by official organizations and media.

just accept that the U.S. isn't the most free country in the world compared to other western countries. don't get so upset about some forum user highlighting your average western nation in those lists. OP is american, that's probably the reason why breadandb highlighted it. he's just trying to help OP out. which helpful answer did you gave exactly? you are only criticizing others while not contributing anything at all. oh yeah, your amazing personal opinion:

love your typical tourist description of the countries you list. like the "wide-spread public urination". that is supposed to help OP find a libertarian country? or your typical tourist drugs/prostitution description of "Amsterdam" (I guess you mean HOLLAND? amsterdam is not a country, it only has 1 million people. holland has 16 million other people and ten thousands of other towns/cities) they have a lot more other rights, like the right to legally die when in pain (euthanasia), totally free press/media, gay marriage, and go on and go on. they are what America is claiming(bragging) to be. just because they have higher tax and safety laws on guns doesn't mean the U.S. is comparable in individual freedom to them. i actually know a dutch person and americans could learn something from them in many ways. just because they aren't bragging doesn't mean they don't have more freedom.

anyway. i put way too much time in this already. just wanted to say my 2 cents. to OP: those lists are a really good indicator for countries with the most freedom in the world which are actually livable for an american.

Thanks for your 2 cents poka.

A) OP asked for personal experience not lists. Breadandbutter provided lists.
B) yes I am american, I take no offense from people bashing a country I happened to be born in.
C) how do you know OP is american?
D) OP asked for personal experience, thats why I gave my 'typical tourist opinion'
E) Not being fined by the government for pissing outside IS a sign of libertarianism imo.
D) Drugs/prostitution are more examples of libertarian beliefs in gov not interfering in personal activities

As far as the AMSTERDAM thing, thats the only place I went in holland, I traveled throughout Ireland and England. I didn't think it would be right to put down my experiences as holland because I went to a city that might not be a fair representation of the country as a whole.

This thread is so annoying. The only stereotype of Europeans I actually believe is that they think Americans are all flag wavers with blind allegiance. While realizing it is a massive generalization, I think European freedom is more 'freedom to,' while what OP is talking about is more, 'freedom from.'

Yes I am American, I certainly don't think this nation is superior in all facets, but anyone who thinks western Europe is generally more Libertarian does not understand the term. Also poka, according to international usage, 'Holland' isn't a country either...

Uummm, yes. I obviously assumed OP is American, why else would I highlight the U.S. in those lists? Why are you so upset about me highlighting the U.S. anyway?



I love how this turns into a classic U.S. vs. [insert continent or country] thread. Why does it seem that every time someone says something good about other countries as the U.S. it always turns into a childish discussion like this?

I posted a list and Rambuffs is making a huge deal out of me highlighting the U.S. in it. And I stopped replying to his posts right there because I knew where it was gonna end up. I see this a lot on the internet, the "USA vs. Others" threads. It's childish and weak ego stuff. I hate it.

Stop comparing the two continents as if it are the only 2 places people are talking about in this thread. Don't make this a "USA vs. Europe" thing. Noone even said that, that's what YOU make of it. Are you blind to the other countries in other continents mentioned in this thread or what? I was trying to help OP. This is too ridiculous for any more words. This is the last post I make in this thread. Good luck with it.

Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarchocapitalism, Austrian School of Economics, etc are virtually unheard of outside the U.S. The vast majority of people implicitly believe that it is the duty of the state to restrict the way people live their lives and the right of the state to use violence to control people's lives and confiscate their property. Tell them otherwise and they look at you like you're speaking in tongues.

While it's not exactly a libertarian paradise, afaik studies show that standard of living has improved in Somalia since the government collapsed and is actually better than that of neighboring states:

http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf

Breadandbutter
At the bare minimum highlighting the the US in those lists is patronising. I'm not making a huge deal about you bolding the US, I just pointed it out. What I have stated repeatedly is that you don't understand libertarianism and that you put up lists of information that the OP specifically said they didn't want.

As far as I can remember I'm the only person in this thread to give personal experience on libertarian values while traveling. And I only needed one username to do it.

Funny, you don't seem to understand what LIBERTarianism means. A country that allows people to use drugs, swear on national TV, have legal prostitution, have gay marriage, etc... IS what we call a libertarian country. On the other hand, a country with low taxes is ALSO a libertarian country.

Economical liberty isn't the only form of liberty out there. If a country has total economic freedom but their government doesn't allow them to have many personal freedoms, it isn't the ultimate libertarian country. For some weird reason you're trying to force everyone to only focus on economical freedom, like it is the only form of it out there. To decide which country is the most libertarian, one must combine personal freedom, property rights and low economic interference (taxes)

Many people may argue that libertarianism is mostly about personal freedom. This is what Libertarianism means: "Libertarianism is a political philosophy that upholds individual liberty, especially freedom of expression and action" But of course, a country with maximum personal freedom and 100% tax isn't libertarian at all(not that such a country exists). One must combine all different types of freedom to decide how libertarian a country is.

Are you beginning to understand what libertarianism means now? A country that has very low taxes but doesn't allow people to use drugs when they want, use prostitution when they want, let gay people marry and be totally free, have no total freedom of press, etc... isn't the most libertarian country out there.

One must use a combination of all the different type of liberties. How can you disagree with that? This is what I been trying to explain you all along. Are you that proud of the U.S. that you only want to focus on economical liberty? This is getting a little funny but annoying at the same time. I don't know how long I can continue trying to explain things before quitting this thread forever.


Oh, and about the "patronizing" part. Give me a break. I didn't even mean it like that. It says more about your inability to accept the position of the U.S. in the world as about me. Grow a thicker skin.

A 2+2 short version of what I said above:

[x] Libertarianism = a combination of personal freedom, property rights and economical freedom: the least governmental interference in the lives of its inhabitants.
[ ] Libertarianism = all about economical freedom

[x] Ramthebuffs disagrees with this