I'm at the feature table with Phil Hellmuth. Everyone is playing pretty abc because I'm sure they don't want to do anything ******ed on TV and embarrass themselves. Villian is a Eurodonkey that just doubled through Phil when Hellmuth opened UTG to 900, Villian shoved like 6100 total from the SB with A9s and beat Phil's 88. He then won more chips from Phil when he limps the button, Phil raises the BB to 1100, bets 1500 on a K 10 4 flop, bets 2800 on a 10 turn, then check/calls 2400 on the river with JJ and loses to Villians K8s.

I start the hand with 32k and he has around 21k.

My image is pretty nitty and I haven't played any big pots at all.

150/300 - I open 99 to 900 UTG, villian Eurodonkey calls from the SB.

FLOP 478

He checks, I bet 1400, he calls pretty quickly.

TURN: 9

he donks 3000 into me, I think for a 4-5 seconds and call.

RIVER Q

he donks 4000 into me leaving 11k behind and I call.

holy **** say hi to phil for me!

I play the same. Can't imagine how each decision could be anything other than what you did. Seems pretty standard all around.

Call and when he shows you the flush look Hellmuth square in the eye and say "I guess that's why you're the best in the world and I'm not." Keep a straight face.

+1000

I'm shoving the turn. He's shown already to be a huge drooler.

what makes him the greatest is that he's able to defer the betting initiative in between 4th and 5th street, making it somehow possible to donk two consecutive streets without being raised.



a bluff is unlikely in this spot for most just based on the fact that he check/called the flop.

most people dont turn pairs into bluffs even if they represent the bottom end of their check/calling range, and it would be a pretty unusual spot to 3barrel after getting called and having the river brick.

what that implies is that when he does lead in these spots, because it can so rarely be a bluff, he shouldnt be value betting very many hands for the sake of balance and if he's going to choose which ones to do that with, it should be nut / near nut hands, or hands that by token of the fact that you didnt raise the turn, are close to effectively being the nuts.

but despite that, people will still make the error of value betting too thin, whether justified or not - and i think he'll be value towning himself often enough to call on that point alone. your hand is way under represented, and i dont think it's unreasonable for him to value bet slightly worse on the river after just being flatted on the turn and the river bricking.

there's also a pretty reasonable possibility that this guy does erratic things... or for all you know, plays well and is making what should be an effective bluff with something like 45 or 67.


this is a spot that i would not call with strictly bluff catchers, but would with almost all hands that are at least in the realm of possibilities of beating the worst hands he may value bet.



if the guy doing the betting is phil hellmuth, you should tank before calling, because it makes it extra embarassing for him if he is value betting worse when you're considering folding better.


flop and turn are usually trivial decisions, and the only thing that's of any significance is the bet sizing ... and that probably isnt worth addressing since theyre pretty 'normal'. shoving the turn only applies if he's completely awful. i dont think the information you provided is enough to jump to that conclusion.

Villian is not Phil Hellmuth

its "Eurodonky"

I would not shove turn. Nor would I raise.

If he has flush, so be it, we call another bet on river. If he has air and is donking trying to rep the flush, we got more value by calling river and turn rather than raising/shoving. Sure, he does have worse sets or maybe two pair sometimes and we get a call, but air and flushes make up a good part of his range here. If he has air, shoving/raising turn loses us a bet cause he obv folds.

Are we shoving as a bluff or just getting value? There is a fine line between the two and I am not willing to test that line in tourney FULL of droolers.

Skilled/thinking players should be doing whatever they can to reduce their variance in a great structure like the ME.

simple plan simple execution and i think any other line is wrong. wp.

am i crazy for wanting to fold river vs typical live donk?

whenever i get donked into turns like these its a flush like 90+% of the time. (only applies to bad players ofc)

folding the river would be ABSURD. i almost want to raise the river...

i feel the exact same way, but not sure i would pull the trigger given action on previous streets and flush completing + villain betting.

yeah i wouldn't raise river, but if you said that i couldn't call, i had to raise or fold, raise > fold

+1 for shove turn

I think that if you dont feel comfortable raising on the river then you should probably be folding because your opponent certainly isnt folding to a raise, so I probably take the same line and raise to 10 or 11k on the riv.

that rationale is flawed.

he bet 4k on the river into what was an 11k pot.

you only need to have the best hand a fraction of the time to justify calling.

to raise, the necessary condition is that you need to have the best hand > 50% of the time when called.
and probably slightly higher when factoring in ICM issues.

yeah im definitely a way bigger fan of looking for ways to get more chips in the pot, instead of less

I agree
No way I am folding. I would probably just call

I think if you're going to look for ways to get more money in the pot you should be doing it on the turn.

I agree with this. I agree that we should be pretty happy with our hand in the sense that it is stronger than the line we are taking and that if we had to raise or fold turn/river we should elect to raise and not fold.

But I still think that call turn/call river is the MOST profitable line we can take. I think thats also the most important part of the hand/discussion.

Sounds like this "Eurodonkey" is +EV at this table

ofc but in this case i dont think this is the best line. op's line is the most profitable like aspoker8 said imo.
u cant say if we have the best hand often enough to argue a raise to get more moniez in .its like u play the partypoker on sundays... we cant define their ranges as default so thats why we must try to find the best line.

I can't wait to see how Norman Chad parlayed this hand into a joke about his ex-wives

OP left so much money on the table there it reminds me of my second marriage?