The title might be a bit sensationalizing but really it was one of the more ridiculous spots I've ever been in. I'm posting more because it's such a rare spot and would like to know people's input on every aspect of the hand.

Okay, so on to the hand. Day 1B €3500 WPT Vienna. Here is the action:

Martin Jacobsen(who had been playing solid all day) opens to 1200 at 300/600 75 utg with 60k, Tim Finne (only been there a few hours but solid for the most part) flats utg+1 with 24k. MP2 flats with 35k. Folds to the sb who shoves all in for 13k. Guy had been a bit aggro. I have 1010 in the bb with 60k. I flat the all in. Martin flats the 13k all in behind me. Tim then asks how much the all in was for and then ships his 24k all in.

So now what? I'm getting absurd odds but what is Martin's flat? I assume pretty strong. Can I get him to fold JJ, QQ? Do I even want to try? And what if he has the other 1010, then I'm helpless against what I presume to be an overpair in Tim's hand. Or can Tim have AK ever? I feel like if he did he would've hemmed and hawed(sp? never typed it before lol) a bit more. I only have to call 11k to win around 77k but I have to put my tournament at stake against someone else who can bust me.

Let's say I fold and it folds to Martin who has the same situation with one notch better, JJ. With the other player in the pot he needs better than 4.25:1. Would you say he needs 5:1? 6:1?

Fold the first time

For sure.

nah we have no 4b range so flatting TT should be fine

After that, lol wtf, I guess Martin never has KK+ so ship quickly? Hard to figure that out on the spot.

I'm confused about the tipping point for a valid raise here. Isn't 11K (24K-13K) over the initial re-raise of 13K - 1,200 or 11,800 not large enough to re-open the action. Do you have the option of shipping here or can you only call & raise OTF?

I think QQ-KK are unlikely to be in Martins flatting range but AA is possible that is worried about Rootlus making a big fold of QQ+ AK that he might be able to get post flop value from. Action is open due to the action being over 1/2 the raise and being an allin, I believe but I always get confused on this rule as a player of Limit games where you can complete or raise depending on the action. Pretty funny that Ben is advocating a fold and Johan a flat, not the usual order of business. Also folding TT to the shove would have been pretty criminal unless Roothlus has a strong read that I am flatting huge based on the recent gameflow of the MP(loosest player at table so far and French) and SB players in the hand. SB had recently 325ved my utg1 open and Ben Vinson's UTG3 flat/backraise for 55+bbs with JJ in a horrible spot where for 60ish bbs with JJ when I had not been opening much at all and had also not shown any propensity to hood 3bets lite OOP at all. Some Swedes just think JJ is the nuts, Martin Jacobson is not among them. On Martin's tweets of the hand, he said he thought Roothlus was capped at AK, QQ and TT being the bottom of his range. I happen to disagree with this as I agree with Johan that Roothlus should be flatting his entire range. SB was obv oi/tilted after his punt to Vinson and losing a 3bet pot just previous to that where he bet/mucked the river to Martin.

Also, before I put my chips in the pot I did tank for a bit by my standards as I'm not a hemmer and hawer (20+ seconds) and I believe my exact words were: "I guess I'm allin".

With those stacks and positions isn't your flatting range pretty damn strong, Mr. Highlandfox? I think it's a fold the first time.

thanks for your in depth analysis.

i do think his range is fairly strong here but 77+, AJs+, KQs, maybe a little tighter, but that's enough hands he's not going all in with that im okay calling 1010. I would assume he's folding AQ and 77-99 to the all in and call.

And highland, thanks for the analysis. Spot on.

Confusing even for mid-stakes player.

What was the plan for further action, after flat-calling 20bb 3b-shove?
2 solid players in UTG, what do you think UTG+1 flat-calling w/ 40bb stack, inviting the world, behind solid player?

If Martin is opening 10% from UTG, he's going to have {JJ+,AK} about 30% of the time. If Tim is calling {88+,AJs+,AQo+,KQs}, he's going to have {JJ+,AK} 51% of the time.

I think it's really interesting about the strong possibilities of you and Martin holding the same hand, and how that affects the required pot-odds, moreso in his spot if you fold.

I'd just fold pre the first time around. As played, I have no ****ing clue. I'd start by laughing at my life.

So, I originally though Martin's fold was a complete disaster, but I did the EV calcs with Roothlus Flat/Folding range as exactly TT/JJ (1/7 times having two dead Jacks), Tim's shipping range as KK+, and SB range as {77+, Ats, AJo KQs} and came up with a total netEV of +579 chips for Martin, which is a small enough edge where I guess a fold could be justified for 11k more (?), if we are extremely confident in those ranges for Roothlus and Tim.

That's a worst case scenario, though, and I don't think we should necessarily eliminate AK entirely from Tim's range (or QQ I suppose). Also, while it does seem likely that Roothlus Flat/Fold range is exactly TT,JJ, perhaps we should also consider QQ, Ako and AQs? Although, I'm not sure he calls AQs to begin with, and of those hands it is the one he should be most likely to rip when it comes back around (if he is confident tim has KK+).

So I guess it's actually a somewhat close spot, especially if we aren't sure that Adam calls TT here. Though from Tim's description it seems like it should certainly be in our perceived range. I would certainly call though because I would be way more tilted watching Tim scoop the pot when a Jack hits, than I would if I called and flipped over my hand and Roothlus told me he folded the other two Jacks.

As for you, Roothlus, I'm in the fold both times camp.

wtf is tim finne doing is prob a good question as well....guess AA or an oddly played ace king!

folding either time seems insane

You have to fold initially. You don't have that big an edge over the squeezer's range. Not sure the early position players have as strong ranges as some people are making them out to be. However, it just isn't worth putting in 10K or more not knowing what they will do.

You have odds to call the push if they OR always flats. As is, it is a pretty weird situation.

Never been in those spots, but I agree with those who advocate folding pre. We are probably not a huge favourite against sb's jam and we've got two sharks behind us with unknown holdings. I am not sure I am a fan of flatting any hand here, small 3-bet (if it fits, never understood this rule) is always better (ofcourse with your whole range). Mainly because despite of flat looking strong we got less chances of getting action if we hold KK+ here than if we hold a marginal hand like yours.

But again, why get yourself in that awkard spot in the first place.

EDIT: ALSO DYING TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

Not quite.

lol sick spot

not enough good scenarios happen with TT here, there are decent amount of overpairs in both martin and utg+1 range and even some in 1st shover range i'd just fold 2nd time but not 1st

crystal clear fold imo

(was also @wpt vienna)

not folding either time

fold pre

fold pre