Hey guys I just busted 20th in the Super Tuesday and felt really bad after this my bustout hand.
So I was at an active table and I had already 4 betted 3 times in the past 30 hands at this table, this was my 2nd time 4 betting Paris at the table. The last time was 12 hands ago 7 handed UTG vs his button 3 bet, had a real hand that time.
Paris is an active player and 3 bets the SB 16,7% over a 1k hand sample, I cannot exactly recall over how many spots it is, so it's probably a pretty small sample, but in general I know he likes to 3 bet the SB especially. I'm happy with my 4 bet, but after he flats I don't like my play. So I do 4 bet with my QJo and he tanks for a second or two and flat calls. Flop comes KxQsJs and he quite quickly leads out with a tiny bet of 17k into 83k, which looks insanely nutted. Looking at it now I only see one or two combos KQ and 9Ts if he doesn't get KQ in pre. So I assume he's capeable of flatting AA KK, since I've been 3 betting a bunch, but checkshoves with AA atleast and KK obv has me beat. I just don't see any bluffs in his donklead at all and feel like I should be getting away from this flop pretty easily. Feeling really dissapointed with my play looking back at the hand and obviously finishing 20th in the ST is dreamcrushing. Still I'd like you guys to let me know what you think... Thanks in advance

Sorry for the poor english, didn't really put much effort into it and I'm really tired right now, gn8 guys. Hopefully I get some responses by tomorrow morning!

I can see why you'd be super concerned by his sizing. Bottom two pair, while a strong absolute hand, has poor relative value on this board.

The obvious concern is that folding to this sizing is uber-expoitable if the villain expects you to perceive it as so strong that you so much as contemplate folding bottom two.

However, I think you're obligated to either call or shove. And the times you call, you should only get away on the scariest of turns. You could likely fold if a K comes; an A, T, or 9 obviously make things dicey since you don't have the greatest equity even if you are somehow ahead (could see him having something really weird like a flush draw + 1 pair hand).

I'd likely 4-bet shove here pre. We'll have good FE and it will perhaps send at least a bit of a message.

Have seen most good regs not folding this 9Ts typish hands in spot like this one, even in big deep runs.. How can that be profitable?

Hey thanks for ur response! I do kind of feel obligated to shove youre right, but alot of MTT players arent balanced at all so I dont think me folding in this exact spot cause I only give him KQ or 9Ts will be exploitable. I also think hands like pair flushdraws will just c/shove this flop too, but I might be wrong.
Hey thanks for the response and i dont really like shoving cause were a bit too deep for a jam and ive been 4 betting alot so he can take away all of my top range if i shove and i just think it adds quite a lot of varience. I mean I had a pretty big egde with my stacksize and the field left wasnt too tough either.

I don't question your decision because you had a better sense of the field, etc (and frankly your results are much better than mine) just saying in this spot, that's what I would do. And the variance is worse for him when he calls than it is for you by making this move. I can run the results through HM but I frequently 4-bet shove in these spots against a habitual 3-better with hands that I expect to have at least decent equity when called and I'm pretty sure, it's been profitable for me. And I think it will decrease the amount of times you get 3-bet.

And if you're concerned about variance, then I think the correct response to the 3-bet would be to fold rather than commit 35% of your stack to the pot and giving him an opportunity to hood-call you (although I don't like his call) with an SPR of 1.2 on the flop.

two pairs in 4bet pot can't get away only concern is his donk lead which is never a bluff

Well my thing and I don't play 1ks on stars being American is the 4b sizing
What are you accomplishing w that sizing is he folding any of his 3b range? If your just trying to take the initiative
I prefer an option that at least gives him a chance to fold pre
I think a ton of the hands you do beat now just jam pre
Agree w tt that about absolute vs relative hand strength
Also if you've been 4b that much you have I assume Paris has adjusted by now
Which makes an arguement for flatting or just folding pre..weak? Idk

Hey I mean sure I'm giving him a good price, but he's 3 betting a whole lot from the SB (16.7%) over a 1k hand sample, which isn't many spots, but I also know him as a player and he is very aggresive preflop. I think he'll probably be 3 betting a range of 87s+,JTo+,A8o+,A2s+,22+ since I've been opening alot, so after I 4 bet I think he sticks in ATo+ maybe any pair and all the suitted broadways he's 3 betting, maybe even some suited aces. So yes maybe given the large percentage he's going to be 5 bet shoving me with I should just fold. But I still don't think he will be able to profittably flat me with the SPR being 1.2ish and his handrange being pretty faceup with some lower suitted connectors and since he's good probably to balance it with AA,KK. Also people nowadays tend to make 4 bet sizes smaller in MTT's so I guess I've just kind of adjusted to it. 41-43k does seem better though, you've got a point there.

His 4b call oop is very ambitious. I would adjust versus this player and exploit him with bigger 4-bets. As played I think it's a cooler.

Also, seing how wide he 3bets, I think flatting his 3b with QJo ip is mucho mucho better than trying to re-bluff and bloat the pot and letting him pile hands you have great equity against. Punish him by playing post versus his wider 3b range oop.

C'MON, IT WAS SOOTED.

start w/ calling otf

edit:
oh well actually i consider folding bcs his range has crushed the board so hard...

cmon, flat 3bet pre all day!!!! 4b/folding a hand that flops so well IP is a disaster

that 1k tuesday level of aggro tho

4bet shoove preflop.fe is too big think at this spot against paris and we have two good blockers for his monster range.post flop think that donk lead there at this size is a strong hand or a strong combo with a good equity

+1

Folding to villains flop lead. I'm having trouble finding any good reasons for him to lead on that board as a bluff into your 4bet range.

at that price with villain active 4betting i dont see him folding any hand he 3bs

lol @ pre discussion guys

i think i would fold otf flop altough i hate it vs dedes bcs hes a huge clicker^ but i dont see how can we get to sd w/ our hand

shoving otf is pretty poor btw
what do u wanted to accomplish?

But he is out of position, stacks sizes are bad for setmining or boardmining, and he has 9Ts. Basically he is asking to take his stack on 9 or T high boards.

4bet is fine. I would make it slightly bigger though like 42 - 44k.

I don't like flatting too much. I think we are bit short for that.


As played flop is prob fold even against this button clikker. Pretty sure he doesn't balance his lead range there at all as is so damn nutted that u are just crushed.

I here a lot of advice in spots like this saying not to flat hands like this at this stack depth because we are "to short".

Would anyone care to enlighten me on why this is the case? I just look at the spot as villain has a wide range, we have a good hand, let's see the flop. It's not like we're calling with a small pp trying to hit a set where we want X implied odds to show a profit on a call.

I think the answer is because without initiative, you can realize the equity in your stack better if you re-raise. You will get a fold x percentage of the time, you will fold y percentage of time on flop when you actually have best hand, and you will fold flop z percentage of time, when you would have made best hand on subsequent streets. Corollary to z is that you lose your ability to float.

I wouldn't expect us to see many flops after 4betting in this spot. Obv not the case here as villain peeled light, which if we have a read that a guy likes to peel 4bets op with suited connectors, 4betting this wide for value make a lot of sense.

But guys rarely do that imo, so we're just turning qj into a bluff. Realizing our equity doesn't seem to relevant as one of us is going to usually end up folding pre. If villain was imbalanced to the point where 4bet bluffing here is way +ev, folding out all the equity those hands that will fold pre does seem best.

But if we assume he's somewhat balanced, it seems like a waste of a hand this strong to end up folding pre. We get a lot of value post bluff catching and we dominate him as often as he dominates us when it comes to kickers when our pairs hit.

That was my point too. And I don't think we need that much initiative if we are confident in our post-flop game and can combo-float a lot of boards and make his life miserable. I mean, he is with a speculative holding out of position, we've got a good hand in position, imo, must be +ev spot for us unless we are really bad post.