Hi, this is my first post on 2+2, I felt like posting this here because pocketfives sucks for discussion imo.

This is 35 minutes into the $320 on stars.. this is a tourney that is held once a week with 20 minute levels. I absolutely hate busting this tourney early.. I think this is a spot that you might actually consider folding KK pre. I have never played with this guy before so i know nothing about him. My question is are u folding in this spot? and if your calling, what range are u putting the utg limper on?

PokerStars Game #1887433: Tournament #95435805, $300+$20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/07/16 - 21:37:22 (ET)
Table '95435805 94' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: dirty.brasil (2822 in chips)
Seat 2: potatopolice (1990 in chips)
Seat 3: firas71 (3075 in chips)
Seat 4: fireofthesky (3990 in chips)
Seat 5: Mumtum23 (1875 in chips)
Seat 6: hotsas (2698 in chips)
Seat 7: HAXIMOB (3780 in chips)
Seat 8: LoneHixx (3250 in chips)
Seat 9: RED DOG 30 (3580 in chips)
Mumtum23: posts small blind 15
hotsas: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hotsas [Kh Kc]
HAXIMOB: calls 30
LoneHixx: folds
RED DOG 30: calls 30
dirty.brasil: folds
potatopolice: folds
firas71: folds
fireofthesky: raises 90 to 120
Mumtum23: folds
hotsas: raises 300 to 420
HAXIMOB: raises 3360 to 3780 and is all-in
RED DOG 30: folds
fireofthesky: folds
hotsas: ??

good fold imo.
menlo-like.

I call.

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/thepoke...er-profile.asp

FWIW... Those bluff stats tell me he's exactly the type of player who would limp UTG with AA and then shove to a raise.

And also the type of player who doesn't know how to value hands.

They're also the type of player to limp/shove 99 or AQ here. I'm not folding (sorry u lost tho).

stop playing the 320 obv.

why?

you arent ready if you are folding KK there

so this is your favorite tournament? cool. wouldn't it be sweet to double up early and have a big stack to wield later? You're only behind to ONE hand. and if he does have AA you've still got a 20% chance to win the hand. You have to be willing to die in this game in order to win.

lol.. first of all plz don't say you aren't ready if you fold kk here.. Im the person who almost never folds kk pre. However in this spot I felt I was behind.. I feel that part of being a GREAT poker player is making good laydowns like this. HOWEVER, unfortunately, I didn't go with my gut and ended up calling hoping he had AK or something. Looking back on the hand I just feel that if you are ever going to fold Kings in a tournament. This is the spot to fold. I know its almost impossible to do!

PokerStars Game #18874331458: Tournament #95435805, $300+$20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/07/16 - 21:37:22 (ET)
Table '95435805 94' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: dirty.brasil (2822 in chips)
Seat 2: potatopolice (1990 in chips)
Seat 3: firas71 (3075 in chips)
Seat 4: fireofthesky (3990 in chips)
Seat 5: Mumtum23 (1875 in chips)
Seat 6: hotsas (2698 in chips)
Seat 7: HAXIMOB (3780 in chips)
Seat 8: LoneHixx (3250 in chips)
Seat 9: RED DOG 30 (3580 in chips)
Mumtum23: posts small blind 15
hotsas: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hotsas [Kh Kc]
HAXIMOB: calls 30
LoneHixx: folds
RED DOG 30: calls 30
dirty.brasil: folds
potatopolice: folds
firas71: folds
fireofthesky: raises 90 to 120
Mumtum23: folds
hotsas: raises 300 to 420
fireofthesky said, "muntum very very down"
HAXIMOB: raises 3360 to 3780 and is all-in
RED DOG 30: folds
fireofthesky: folds
hotsas: calls 2278 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1082) returned to HAXIMOB
*** FLOP *** [2h 6d Ts]
hotsas said, "kasdkgjakdjga"
hotsas said, "adsf"
*** TURN *** [2h 6d Ts] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [2h 6d Ts Ad] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
hotsas: shows [Kh Kc] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
HAXIMOB: shows [Ah Ac] (a full house, Aces full of Deuces)
HAXIMOB collected 5561 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5561 | Rake 0
Board [2h 6d Ts Ad 2d]
Seat 1: dirty.brasil folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: potatopolice folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: firas71 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: fireofthesky (button) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Mumtum23 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: hotsas (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Deuces
Seat 7: HAXIMOB showed [Ah Ac] and won (5561) with a full house, Aces full of Deuces
Seat 8: LoneHixx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: RED DOG 30 folded before Flop

I see you are man who likes to live dangerously!

snap

no. don't be results oriented. you made a good call.

You answered the question with the preceding sentence.

If you know nothing about your opponent folding KK preflop is not an option.

Instacall.

Well hoping he had AK was a bad idea. He would have won anyway. So you should have also folded this hand if he had AK. [/results oriented]

Don't be results oriented. This is an instacall.

There is 990 in dead money and it costs 2250 or so to call. Thats a fairly big overlay.

Lets say you're 3-1 favourite against his range excluding AA (allowing for him holding KK or AK, AQ etc). You're 1-4 against AA.

He'd have to have AA over 60% of the time. Against a player you know nothing about I think that is WAY too conservative

I put him on AK.

i think you guys are overestimating the spaz factor just a liiiiiittle bit

it's a $320, not a $5

big laydowns are wildly overrated imo

I thought it was an instacall but now you put it like that, this deep, it's AA 60%+ IMO.

...and he plays his AA exactly like a (bad) 5$ player....

I need a lot more information about the other player before I fold KK. In this situation you have a small bit of information. It is an instacall.

You have to think about what would be necessary to fold KK before the flop. A perfect storm of information would have to present itself. I would think that if you are folding KK before the flop more than 1 in a 500 times it is too much. The chances of someone else having AA in a full table is around 1 in 25.

That is why this thread is somewhat unimportant. The chances of that happening are so remote that it isn't worth the time.

Yeah, which is why I don't understand all the "Well, if he can play AA like that, he can play other stuff like that, too!"

Stick your fingers in your ears, tell yourself you have Kings, close your eyes, think of England...

not looking at the results yet, i call, but if there is a situation that would want you to fold kk pre this is one for me that i wouldnt critize vs certain players, thats just me.