If we assume that once moorman starts barreling OP pf he doesn't plan on letting up easy on further streets, how can so many be saying that flatting the 3bet is terrible?

Do people not like value if there is some variance & decision-making to be anticipated?


KK doesn't play all that tough in an inflated pot even OOP, and on most boards calling him down shouldn't be too tough (tho I don't think this is one of the boards to be a hero on)

Not true. Villain shoves 46s 100% of the time regardless of OPs play.

Don't really think we're spoiler alerting anyone that Moorman likes to click the button on the right like 100% when we 4b pre.

(rosebud was the name of his sled btw)

I think anyone that hasn't sweated/played with moorman extensively can't comment on preflop. I have. Not 4betting pre is a travesty.

So you're saying we should turn KK into a bluffcatcher?

Alright so once we call the 3bet and checked the flop, we've completely seized control of the betting to him. Everyone (including people saying flatting pre is useless) pretty much agrees that moorman is firing nearly 100% on the flop once we've flatted pre + checked to him. He may not double barrell 100% of the time, but likely still a substantial majority of the time. KK is looking pretty good to me against 3-4 community cards, especially since we get to control the pot on each street by choosing between calling or raising his anticipated bet (based on texture, his sizing, etc.)

I'm not saying this is the optimal way to play the hand, but I still think to call OP's flat of the 3bet terrible is pretty far off. We would have to know the history between moorman & OP, their history bvb specifically, and OP's 4betting frequency. If OP had only shown KK+ in 4bet pots, he risked making only as little as 1700 from villain in this pot.


Again, not saying flatting pf is the best way to pick up equity since I don't know their history. Maybe if OP 4bets pre moorman indeed will 5bet bomb away way too often to make the 3bet correct. But until we know some other dynamics, I wouldn't rule out that flatting has some merits.

+1

However I would take into consideration that MoorMan1 is probably more solid than majority of players especially postflop and I don't want to be playing OOP against him with many hands. I would probably 4-bet against him good majority of the time although KK and AA might be hands I would consider a flat. Definitely folding the river here. I'm calling or check raising flop, turn looks tough.

I'd have to agree. Flatting is better than folding, though.

ya, i said i liked call better on turn than fold if we got there, i think he is barreling a ton, if not always, on this board where the top of hero's range is like A8s, which most people don't call 3 bets oop with Ax type hands, so i think its even more likely moorman bombs. i agree moorman is obv competent, i think he is one of the best online mtt players for sure, but that doesnt mean he isnt super aggressive, and sometimes overly so, and i think we're gonna get owned a ton if our plan is c/c once and give up.

hahaha this!
moorman is extremely spewy preflop in those spots, and very competent postflop. So against him in particular you have to 4bet to induce a 5bet (timing tells,bet sizing etc..).
once you decide to flat, I would fold this turn..as I said he is very competent postflop and you put yourself into a mess oop...he is bombing river 100% with air and value so fold turn..

you're the man

pretty standard river snap call for me (if i took this line up til now)

same here....

VILLIAN IS JBLAZE LOL

LOL WAT

haha sick

don't listen to me (cuz i'm just a microdonk) but if you don't 4bet pre you are inviting moorman to drop a steamer straight in your mouth after the flop.

4 bet for sure , as played turn i call river . Moorman thought process, 70% 3 bet pf, i have position, cards doesnt mean anything. Flop ace, he check, ok standart c-bet , hmmmm call , ok if he call pf he has not ak, ok i bet turn call hmmm, he has AQ i need to bet again he is capable to fold one pair . Something like that.

Where is the 4th bet pre?? I'd 4bet pre and then if he flats bet/folding this flop is fine.

Also, as played are there any hands you are beating when he bets the turn?? Easy fold on the turn.

Moorman is correct , yes villain is jblaze, and he sent me the hand, and we discussed the hand, and each of us had some thoughts on it, and when I asked jblaze if he minds if I post the hand on 2+2, he said it's ok by him, so I wanted to hear what other players thoughts on the hand was, and I think some interesting responses and some not so interesting ones but definitely wanted to hear others thoughts.

kind of a difference btween jblaze and moorman tho

wait, is hero or villian jblaze?

jblaze is hero in the small blind, moorman is villain in the big blind.

makes a HUGE difference should had been posted in the op, agree that flatting pre is really bad now.

Charder , check your PM