I have about 60k to start the hand and Seidel has about 80k. Seidel is extremely annoyed with me as he has been 3 betting me a ton and check raising every C- bet that I make.. I have played really solid from ep-mp but have opened a ton of buttons- cutoffs ( he is in the 6 seat I am in the 3 seat)

Anyways blinds are 4-800 with ante.. I open to 2200 with 1010 utg + 2.. Seidel raises to 6k from MP.. Everyone folds.. I call.

Flop J-5-6 rainbow.. I check.. he bets 8k??? What do you do here?? I feel like he is super annoyed with me so his range might be pretty wide here.. I dont really see any value in ever raising his flop because im never getting a better hand to fold?? Ill add the later streets once I get some input on my line so far.

I would call and revalue on the turn.

If you think his range is wide enough to make you want to call him down on a flop like this, I'd go ahead and 4-bet preflop. I've never played with him before, but if he's like some of the other live pros, he's only shoving like QQ+ and maybe AK, even if he thinks you could be weak. This makes it an easy fold to a 5-bet. If you think he has a big hand (it doesn't sound like this was the case) you can setmine. I just don't like playing this hand in check/call mode OOP with your stack size in this tourney.

As played (which isn't that bad because he might shut down on the turn not wanting to preserve his stack), I think you have to fold to a turn bet unless you get some great read, and then it's a shove.

I call.. turn 9.. it goes check/ check.. river J.. I check.. he bets 20k... I vomit?

I think you have to call this river. He probably knows that you have a hand like TT, it's just a matter of whether he is trying to bluff you off it or get value from it.

You call and vomit on Seidel if he has you beat.

ewww, gross river. umm, it would appear his range is pretty polarized here, although seidel could be vbetting like AA/KK here thinking QQ/TT might make a crying call. i would think he is def checking worse than AA/KK/no J. he is also bluffing enough here that it makes it a tough fold.

i like preflop & whoever said 4bet is insane. preflop/flop seem 100% std.

Sounds like you should be the one "extremely annoyed".

With your reads and the way you played it, I think you have to call, otherwise I don't see much point in calling the flop.

what about pushing river?

I think it's suicidal.

OP: What if any hands has Seidel shown down when he 3bet you? Has he 3bet any EP raises of yours like this one or were they mostly LP raises that he 3bet from the button or blinds?

My friend played w/ Seidel on day 1. He told me he was 3-betting a ton and raising/2 barrelling like every flop. With that said, this seems like a terrible card to bluff. Then again, it also seems like a terrible card to bet anything that doesn't have a J in it (is he really checking behind the turn and betting this river w/ an overpair?). Idk wtf to do. I guess I just call the clock on myself and let it run out.

I'd rather block the river than check-fold.

I watched this hand happen. Pretty sick.

Edit: Might as well be truthful. I dealt the hand. So you can punch me in the stomach later or something.
Double Edit: I was talking to a friend of mine about the hand and were thinking you had TT or QQ. Are you 4betting QQ pre or how does it change the hand?

4bet preflop is pretty bad, why turn your hand into a bluff so deep?

against the player described, 4 bet/call or just fold preflop

i played with seidel in the foxwoods tournament and twice this summer and he was extremely tight all 3 times. like i was waiting for him to get fed up and do something out of line and he never ever ever did.

also appears to be a really crappy river card for him to bluff.

'cause apparently his range is really wide, and our hand is a pretty bad bluff catcher this deep oop. I dunno though, If he's that aggro preflop i'd want to call a shove which is really not a good outcome.

shoving river is so lol

I haven't played with him this year, I played with him 5 or 6 times last year and I think I saw him 3bet twice, maybe OP confused him with David Pham?

Thats the thing. .I had played with him 6 or 7 hours and I don't remember him showing down really anything.. only QJo off one time for 2 pair..

I'm never 4 betting here ever with QQ.

Maybe gigabet can give his input on the hand because he was at the table all day ( not sure if he still posts here).. anyways I had been playing a ton of pots.. and he was adjusting well to me by 3 betting and check raising alot ( mostly in blind battles) anyways.. I figured his pf range is pretty wide( maybe that was my mistake) .. When the turn comes a 9 he asked how much I have left.. I said 42k.. he checked behind and when the river J came I really felt like he had KK or AA.. or complete air and was just trying to own me.. when he bet 20k I tanked for probably 5 minutes.. and called.. he showed KK and I vomited.. I really think he played this hand perfectly and im just not sure I should be folding 10s pre there...

As played fold the river, what is he bluffing you with here for 1/4 of his chips ?

he 3 bet pflop so given your view that he is AGGRO with you for some reason at worst he has a QQ-AA and maybe AJ, QJ sooted