Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Dumb to reraise AK with these stack sizes? Dumb to reraise AK with these stack sizes?

01-22-2008 , 01:03 AM
Is this a standard reraise with these stack sizes against a random or should I take a flop in position?

Poker Stars $109 $9 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1000/t2000 Blinds - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP2: t98634
CO: t64408
Hero (BTN): t49228
SB: t47453
BB: t50738
UTG: t34012
UTG+1: t39824
MP1: t57726

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with A K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t6000, 3 folds, Hero raises to t20000
01-22-2008 , 01:54 AM
I like calling for a few reasons:

1) Hopefully SB or BB will squeeze if they are aggro

2) UTG+1 who has 20 bbs is usually pretty tight so you are going to get 3 bet shoved on by most of his open range (and usually you are behind but obv you have to call).

2b) UTG+1 who has 20 bbs is usually pretty tight so he is not folding to your raise.

2c) when he does smooth calls you he is stop and going pretty much every time... are you calling a flop shove on a 28Tr board?

3) I am stabbing at pretty much every flop against a random if I flat his 6k pf and he checks to me. There is no opportunity for this in a reraised pot.


I don't think that repopping him pf is a big mistake but I would be more inclined to raise if he was in middle or late position and if the blinds did not have perfect squeezeing stacks.
01-22-2008 , 02:30 AM
No not dumb, but <3 fiji
01-22-2008 , 02:41 AM
no std.
01-22-2008 , 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornell Fiji
1) Hopefully SB or BB will squeeze if they are aggro
w/o a read on SB/BB, I wouldn't expect randoms to go wild their stacksizes there. A counterargument here is that we don't want SB/BB messing around with 22-99 type hands. We want max fold equity against these hand-types, which is attained by 3betting.

Quote:
2) UTG+1 who has 20 bbs is usually pretty tight so you are going to get 3 bet shoved on by most of his open range (and usually you are behind but obv you have to call).
I think you meant 4bet shoved on, right? Anyways I agree that his range is usually tight. However, when he does get allin after we 3bet, we are not at all in bad shape vs his range.

Quote:
2b) UTG+1 who has 20 bbs is usually pretty tight so he is not folding to your raise.
Well its not like he's open folding AQ, pairs less than nines most of the time. Don't forget that we are still way ahead of his opening range and we are still making better hands (pairs) fold a bunch here.

Quote:
2c) when he does smooth calls you he is stop and going pretty much every time... are you calling a flop shove on a 28Tr board?
When he flats our 3b OOP and shoves flop, I am snapcalling like 90% of flops and I think any other plan is really bad.

Quote:
3) I am stabbing at pretty much every flop against a random if I flat his 6k pf and he checks to me. There is no opportunity for this in a reraised pot.
Well we get a shot at fold equity sometimes when we flat and he checks flop. But when this happens, we are way ahead anyways alot so our flop stab isn't folding better hands too often.



Anyways I just felt like playing devils advocate a little bit.

I agree with Fiji's general ideas, but I slightly prefer calling. 3betting is very fine and theres likely not too much of a difference in a vacuum. That difference is always based on reads/table flow.
01-22-2008 , 05:36 AM
i am just shoving (or 3bet/calling) pf here
01-22-2008 , 06:01 AM
fiji,

if you're worried about calling a 19k bet in a 45k pot with AK, then just make it like 21 or 22 or something.

raising is totally standard and the right play. about the only reasons i'd call are if there's a aggro squeezetard in the blinds or if i myself am in the big blind i may actually just call.
01-22-2008 , 06:29 AM
i think there are two ways to play this, re-popping him all in, or doing a go and go, and calling him and then shoving no matter what cards come up on the flop. the point of AK is to view all 5 cards, that is where ur advantage is at cuz its a good drawing hand. im always happy to shove 40BB's with AK. multiway pot it isnt so good, but still its not a bad move. u made rite play imo
01-22-2008 , 06:34 AM
hard to go and go from the button, yo.
01-22-2008 , 09:25 AM
Your raise size is good OOP, but on the button I would push.

Flat calling with any hand seems a little silly with these stack sizes, but it is certainly playable here, and fine if you follow up well.
01-22-2008 , 11:24 AM
I think if you want to play a bigger pot, then flat calling increases the vaiance of this hand (given stack sizes of you, V, BB, & SB). My plan would be to flat call/call any re-raise & evaluate flop, # of villians, and stach sizes on the flop.

If I raise, I'm pretty much committing myself, so my preference would be to play HU with villian & keep the blinds out of the hand. A shove is pretty transparent, but prolly the right call for this situation IMHO.
01-22-2008 , 11:58 AM
wtf, this is one of the easiest shoves ever.
01-22-2008 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobboboy
wtf, this is one of the easiest shoves ever.
IMO

I'm not a fan of flatting unless you have at least 2 squeeze happy lagtards left to act and you're trying to induce.

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachman42
My plan would be to flat call/call any re-raise & evaluate flop, # of villians, and stach sizes on the flop.
You're calling a 3 bet for ~half your stack then considering folding? I guess AK is a drawing hand...

Last edited by Dantes; 01-22-2008 at 12:15 PM.
01-22-2008 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobboboy
wtf, this is one of the easiest shoves ever.
That's what I was thinking.
01-22-2008 , 01:58 PM
I see there is some disagreement here on whether or not this is standard.
I forgot to mention in OP that this was the money bubble. Does that make this more of a shove because UTG1 will fold alot more hands or less of a shove because UTG1 will be opening alot tighter?
The guy actually min 4bet me leaving himself 6k behind so I knew I was dead but it was too late to make a hero fold. Afterwards I thought I may have wasted my good position and decent stack by reraising and committing myself to call any reraise.
01-22-2008 , 02:04 PM
i want to get it in obv but smaller raise isnt better than just closing our eyes praying and jamming?
01-22-2008 , 02:05 PM
so they dont make hero calls with like 99 or whatever
01-22-2008 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandiFan
IMO

I'm not a fan of flatting unless you have at least 2 squeeze happy lagtards left to act and you're trying to induce.

edit:



You're calling a 3 bet for ~half your stack then considering folding? I guess AK is a drawing hand...

Forgot to take your Riddlin? You didn't even bother to read the whole post.

& to the OP: Yes, being on the bubble does matter here. It makes it a rrAI as the blinds are far less likely to get involved for 75+% of their stack lightly.
01-22-2008 , 03:01 PM
ship it, looks standard to me.
01-22-2008 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSL
I see there is some disagreement here on whether or not this is standard.
I forgot to mention in OP that this was the money bubble. Does that make this more of a shove because UTG1 will fold alot more hands or less of a shove because UTG1 will be opening alot tighter?
The guy actually min 4bet me leaving himself 6k behind so I knew I was dead but it was too late to make a hero fold. Afterwards I thought I may have wasted my good position and decent stack by reraising and committing myself to call any reraise.
Just to be clear about my last post. Shoving here is absolutely the standard play (especially on the money bubble). I was just making the argument that flatting also has its merits and it is something that I am trying to mix into my game (especially if I have any indication that the blinds are squeezeboxes).

I think that raising to 20k is definitely the 2nd worst option with your options going:

Shove=Call >>>>>>> reraise to 20k > fold


---------------------

ASPoker,

thanks for deconstructing my post...

Quote:
w/o a read on SB/BB, I wouldn't expect randoms to go wild their stacksizes there. A counterargument here is that we don't want SB/BB messing around with 22-99 type hands. We want max fold equity against these hand-types, which is attained by 3betting
I am not sure I really want 22-99 to fold in the blinds, especially if they are the type to just take a flop and check fold if they miss their set.

Are you saying that you don't want them to call behind us or that you don't want them to squeeze if we flat? I don't mind taking a 3 way flop in position with AK. I also don't hate getting it in with a 9k overlay against 99 and I love giving AQ/AJs/KQ etc the opportunity to reship over us if we flat the button.

Quote:
Well its not like he's open folding AQ, pairs less than nines most of the time. Don't forget that we are still way ahead of his opening range and we are still making better hands (pairs) fold a bunch here.
How often do you think that AQ folds if we shove from the button? If he is always calling then shoving is best, if he is always folding then you might want him to stick around to let him hit his two outer to get stacked.


Quote:
Well we get a shot at fold equity sometimes when we flat and he checks flop. But when this happens, we are way ahead anyways alot so our flop stab isn't folding better hands too often.
I disagree with this comment. I think that we can get mid pocket pairs to fold on the bubble to a flop bet on a lot of different boards containing high cards. I probably check through a low board but bet a high board for this reason.

Last edited by Cornell Fiji; 01-22-2008 at 03:22 PM.

      
m