Maybe this old guy doesn't know what he is doing, but I am trying to think of what hand I would lead out with from the SB on a 7-way flop.

I slightly prefer raising pre but have no real problem with limping. As played there's no way I'm letting this go in a live tournament with all those pretty chips sitting in the middle of the table. I'm making it 92,100 and calling off the rest.

The two men who called the flop lead would be quite ill-advised to let a card come off if they could beat one pair of nines, so if I happen to get it all in and am shown A5ss I'm just gonna turn an offsuit Jack and river an offsuit King.

who is menlo on 2 plus 2. i tried to figure it out from reading posts but i am not very bright.

is it celtics legned?

How about any two pair or set?

yes

The old guy who limped to start was Steve Brecher fwiw.

Post the turn!

Meh it's one thing to discuss at the table, another on the forums. No need to hate! Speculate all you want about what I might have had, it's interesting

agame ur a decent poker player but your trolling game needs a lot of work.

PM me for coaching.

I also think with 145k exactly you should be raising this flop big (I don't like going all in because people like to put you on draws when you go all in and a healthy pot committing raise in general is psychologically better for hero folds which we want)

Anyways, I am trying to think at what stack depth I'd like a call on this flop instead of a raise and I think its probably like 170 or a 180, but not giving it too much more thought I'm interested as to what others think.

Also, whether or not you raise pre is VERY VERY VERY dependent on your table image/game flow/how the idiots at table would react and only you would know the answer to that, but you know this so its whatever. Aside from that, pretty good hand to post though and I'm interested in what happens now after you ****ed up and flatted. It gets pretty interesting in multiway pots where your hand is pretty much faceup as a draw.

I think pre overlimping is best, raising is probably still +ev but a bit awkward being just 35bb deep

On the flop I cant see how shoving isnt by far the best, there is just so much dead money that you are going to have odds on your money against his calling range + you will pick it up some of the time.

Discussing people's ranges is fine. Having threads that are basically asking for regs range in standard spots is allowed but frowned upon.

Wait it was Steve Brecher? WTF? He's your "not very good older guy"? LOL @ you.

raising and calling pre seem pretty close. I think raising is better in live poker since you automagically get more respect, but neither of those two things can possibly be bad.

this flop, though, isn't close. shoving is suicidal. older people (much less Steve Brecher) leading out into 7 way fields on 964 boards have us crushed every time and they're never folding. the flatters are unfortunate due to the higher FD risk but it doesn't matter because the SB has 2p+ some huge percentage of the time and "isolating him" just means getting a stack in as a 2:1 dog or so. see a turn.

all old guys are assumed "not very good"

Ok cool.......will post full thoughts after breakfast

Ha wasn't actually trying to troll anyone itt but yea, I'm sure my troll game needs a lot of work. I've been told I should stop trolling so I haven't done it much recently and kinda gave it up, so not as proficient anymore. I have some gems in the past though.

Sorry Todd.........he didn't start the day at our table, and had only been at our table for maybe 20 minutes. He was on my direct left, and I think wearing a hat, plus the fact that I don't travel the live circuit much or watch much poker on TV and wouldn't recognize him even if he was in the 10 and I was in the 6 and I got to stare at him every hand. The only note I made was that I saw a play out of him I didn't like, though I can't remember specifically what it was.

So yea, old guy whom I don't recognize without too many chips has been tight and has made a mistake (imo anyway) in one of the only hands he played, he's not gonna get much respect from me. I also don't think he should have a bet/folding range on this board with this many people behind him, so that would be yet another mistake.

Posting that he made a mistake but you don't remember what it was is bull**** IMO. Only leading here when you're willing to get it in seems game theoretically rather unsound as well.

Why is it bull****?

And I don't know GTO strategies so you may be right, but it just seems bad to me to have a bet/folding range in his spot unless some absurd action occurs behind, very curious to hear others thoughts on this.

+1

It's bull**** because he's a fairly well-known player and posting the equivalent of I thought he wasn't very good and made a mistake but I don't remember why is just classless. If you can't back up what you said initially, just retract it.

As for the GTO, just think about it. Why would you ever want to make a bet that is relatively small in relation to your stack only when you're willing to put the rest in? Think about what you're conveying to your opponents by making the bet and how easy it is for them to play perfectly against you with a lot of chips behind.

Yeh, I don't even think leading out in the SB on this flop is a good play with any hand. I don't know that he has 2-pair or better for sure, but I would be suspicious enough to just flat call.

Ok.........so my complete thoughts on the hand.

My thoughts on preflop are pretty well explained by Stealthmunk. I think folding is absolutely nuts, there's just no reason for it if you have any bit of confidence playing postflop and right or wrong, I have a lot. I think raising is an option as I stated in OP, but which is better between that and calling will depend on how everyone will react and what they think of me blah blah blah and in this spot I just think calling was best for me.

So going with my reads at the time, when the sb donks on the flop, I am not particualrly concerned with him. That's not to say I knew he didn't have a big hand or anything, just that I thought it was likely enough he had a wide enough leading range that it wouldn't stop me from going with my hand. Given the sizing and timing and his history, I thought 9x was very likely.

The first flatcall was pretty quick, and from the bb, who I also didn't think was very good. He was a young kid, from Texas, but it was clear (at least to me) that he wasn't a high level thinker and had made several weird/bad plays already. I really have no clue what the full scope of his range is here to flat, but at the time I thought he could be pretty wide here as well and especially being in the bb that he could have a random 9 too or a straight draw or lower flush draw in addition to bigger hands.

Now it gets to Ricky. I think he is pretty good and while for the most part playing live I don't try to put people on exact ranges, I think we can try to do so here. He's in MP and overlimped pre, I don't think he does this with a particularly wide range. Now on the flop, there is a ton of money in from pre, a slightly bigger than half pot bet and a call, and he only has a bit more than me, and flats. So what does he have?
Well I don't think he overflats any 9x here, or really any 1 pair hand at all. You'd think he'd have to raise any set or two pair (if he happened to have 64hh or something). So what's left? Flush draws Flush draws Flush draws, but which ones? I think the fact that I have the T really affects his possible holdings. If he had 87 or 75 I'm sure he would just raise it now. I'm guessing the same holds true for 54. I don't know if he calls pre with 43, but if he does I'm guessing he'd raise that too. I don't think he'd call pre with the J in his hand as the bigger of 2 spades, unless the second one was either the T or the 9, both of which are impossible. He also can't have the Q obviously, so all that's left are KX and AX and I think that is the bulk of his range. The only other hands that seems possible are the 3 combos of 87s that remain, as he might overcall the flop here with an open ender. I'm not sure though, as he has 2 people still to act behind him and not all of his outs are clean.

So basically, if I jam, and somehow get both the blinds to fold, now it will get back to Ricky with what I think is Kxss or Axss an overwhelming majority of the time and he will be getting a bit better than 1.8 to 1, I highly doubt he is folding. That pieced in with I have no clue about the first caller's range, and it's always possible the sb has a big hand too, makes this a fold imo.

Of course I am not durrrr and did not consider all of this during the hand. My first instinct like many of the good players who posted here was just to go all-in. I have two overs and a fd and there's a lot of money out there. But then I started thinking that my overs very likely weren't live, and I'm sooo rarely getting all 3 players to fold, that pieced in with my confidence to continue to keep the pot small if I can and play later streets and re-evaluate, led to me calling as Ricky implied earlier (wish he didn't).

The turn was the 3. It went check, check, Ricky thinks for 15-20 secs and bets 39.6k, to me.

Why did you conclude Brecher had a bet/folding range on the flop when you just called and therefore he didn't bet/fold?

Fold to Ricky's bet. And knowing that it's Brecher and knowing Ricky knows it's Brecher I think you can fold to the flop bet.

I understand he's a fairly well-known player, but I have no reason to retract my statement. I'm not saying he's bad, he could be the best player in the world. All I'm saying is that my read at the time was that he wasn't particularly good, and that's relevant as it affects how I view/play my hand. Great players make mistakes all the time, and clearly it wasn't even big enough to stand out in my head as I don't remember it, and maybe it wasn't even a mistake. I just think how good he is doesn't matter at all, and how good I THINK he is matters a lot, so there we are.

As for the GTO, then maybe we should be checking our entire range here first to act, as while it makes sense that if we never b/f we become exploitable, in practice having a b/f range seems terrible.

You're right, my mistake, he didn't bet/fold the flop, sorry.

I'm confused, Ricky says Brecher was the old guy who open limped UTG, but the rest of the people ITT say Brecher was in the SB. Assuming he's in the SB I agree with Todd that flop and turn are folds.