ok.

Was just worried about coming across as if I was some kind of body builder or something looking for a shady practitioner willing to hook me up.

And possibly even more damaging is that I, and many in here, are physically fit people who lift regularly, have low bf% and high muscle% relative to whatever the average person is in our age group, and yet we have significantly lower T levels than them. At least I feel that way. If my numbers are 540 and 11, what is the average, or *optimal* number for someone in my demographic? Because who wants to be average, anyway? I guarantee it's way above the numbers that I have.

For my basic understanding...

So people get on TRT (inject), or take a pill, or take clomid or something, and it ups their T levels. Probably both free and total.

But their E2 levels also increase. What do people take to counteract this?

Aromatase Inhibitor.

The study I pulled that agegroups averages table from is somewhat old.
Dates back to 1996 I think.
People still did manual labor back then and weren't quite as lardassed as today so maybe the figures represent H&F demographic better than more recent studies?

800+ and 15+ combined with low SHBG and E2 for dat bioavailable T?
1000+ and 20+?

Idk. Just throwing wild guesses around.

Cha seems to be doing more than fine, PR'ing like there's no tomorrow.
Cha, would you mind posting your most recent blood work results again?
With units.

Clomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator that can be used as monotherapy to raise T levels by suppressing E2.

Papaloco dropped this link in Sensei's log:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16422830/

Yeah, increased E2 levels is a problem for people using exogenous T too, not just for fatsos aromatasing left and right.
Like nuclear said, that can be counteracted via Aromatase Inhibiting and Antiestrogen drugs.

Aromatase inhibitors can also be used as monotherapy to raise T levels, see the study I posted itt earlier.

the doc will most likely just assume you read about it recently. apparently it gets asked about extremely often. likely because its mentioned in all the mens fitness mags


source: wife is doctor and bites my head off if i even mention it

Either that, or the reference ranges you are given are complete bull ****, peddled by people who have a financial interest in convincing men to get testosterone therapy.

They may of course be right and additional T May in fact increase your quality of life. But don't go start taking drugs without realizing the motivations of the people telling you what they are telling you.

Definitely agree with this. I also think that part of why some of these practitioners are prescribing T is because of pressure from patients.

Someone like BTM who is pounding 9s from tinder on the reg and looks/lifts the way he does, has virtually no reason to even get his T tested. But if he goes to someone with concerns about his T and that practitioner basically says "GTFO, you're fine", he will understandably be disappointed and go somewhere else. Similar thing happens when his T comes back as something other than high normal and the decision to prescribe T comes up.

The other funny thing about this thread is that (and I'll admit I'm kind of guessing here) it seems like a lot of people are getting advice from some really questionable "doctors". How many considering this have actually had a conversation about T levels and what to do about them with an an endocrinologist. My guess is none, which is pretty shocking. No one around here would ask a random personal trainer for advice on squat form, but it seems that asking any doctor or naturopath about advice on T is totally fine.

I asked my GP about it at my physical last year (just getting tested, nothing more) and he raised an eyebrow and said that if I was still lifting four times a week and having relations regularly that there was no need to worry. He didn't see how jellydick my lifts were, though, so maybe his answer would have been different had he had that information

As a general rule general practitioners dgaf and will say you are fine and tell you to go away without even testing your T, minus a big issue like can't get it up. If you are persistent they might test your T levels at your request, but as long as you are in their "normal" spectrum for your age, like 90%+ of men are, they ain't prescribing you jack ****.

There are a lot of male health specialists on the other hand, like the one Cha goes to, whose livelihood is convincing normal guys they should go on T therapy, among other things, and they will always find a reason to put you on it.

I am not saying their motives are purely financial. I am sure they truly believe most men should be on some level of T therapy, along with other things like cleaning up your diet, to increase quality of life, and who knows, maybe they are right.

Yeah, I agree w/ all of this. That's why I referred to the people doing this stuff as practitioners and "doctors". I'm guessing cha's "male health specialist" falls into this category, but I really have no idea. He could be a well-respected endocrinologist for all I know. Has he given any specifics on this guy's qualifications. But part of the reason why these guys even exist is because the patient gets the Monte treatment from his real doctor and wants an alternative.

I really don't think that mainstream, board-certified MD's are generally the ones prescribing this stuff. I think most of those would basically do what Monte got. But even if one of them told me I should be on T, I'd still get an endocrinologist's opinion.

If I really cared, I'd go to my wife's endocrinologist (she's on synthroid after getting her thyroid nuked). The only problem is that if I take T, I may not be as effective of a Beta anymore, although my lifts may increase to the point that people that go on SS for three months won't pass me. Tough hypothetical call.

My guess is that if you had slightly more T, then you'd have enough drive to actually care and then start injecting T. Tough catch 22.

I'm shocked by how much I agree with quick Ben in this thread. Kinda waiting for the evos and chas to say something to contradict. Definitely ing

This sums up my experience with the endocrinologist. He was basically saying 'one look at you and i know you dont need anything tested in that regard' and upon my persistence prescribed the further tests I had done

Was he wrong?

I agree w/ him as well, just less shocked. I find that except for certain topics where he got some really weird views (e.g vaccines, evolutionary biology, probably a couple of others I'm forgetting) he makes sense most of the time.

I agree with qb mainly but I really don't get this thread. Is getting doctor prescribed trt when you aren't 50 plus just so you can take test and still feel like you aren't on peds? Like if doctors would give you the same dose as an elite lifter but said it was safe even if there was no proof would you still do it?

Nah, but since I did not go to him with the 'I need to increase my T so I can get gains faster' approach, but rather just a concerned guy who wanted to know whether the numbers being on the low side could be suboptimal for daily life, you would not expect him to act any differently.

When I take all my afternoon and morning results to him for one last meeting, I am sure we will discuss all T related things. I will surely ask him what he thinks of going through something like TRT and how much weight would he put on that treatment as aesthetics/cosmetic and how much as health-and-wellbeing -enhancing with numbers like mine. And of course the risks.

I did that when I saw my first endo. He did the whole "You definitely look like you do not need trt" schpiel. My issue was basically, well what if I'm working twice as hard as someone else for a fraction of the results? Because that's definitely what it seems sometimes. He had been an endo for ~25 years and basically replied with "Hormone studies are relatively new and we don't know that much about them. Will it increase your libido? Some studies say yes, some say it has no effect. Will it make you look like mark mcguire? Yes, it can. But I only prescribe them to those with hypergonadism (or whatever the technical term for super-low T is)"

So, it was pretty unhelpful. "derrr I'm an endo but what I do isn't certain." no ****.

Yep.

Yeah do all that. hell, why not mention doing it yourself feel him out for his thoughts on that. I mean, you're paying for his time after all. I wish I had done this, lol.

has nothing to do with that for me. Going to a doctor is because they know more about this than I do. I'd probably rather go to evo than a doctor honestly. It sounds like cha has found the right doctor, and that's just what I've looked for, but I've failed so far.

Overall I'm very interested in trying it to see what kind of effects it would have. I really dgaf at all about the legality or anything about it. If I feel better, and also look better on it, then it's worth it. If there are significant side effects, short or long, then it's probably not worth it because I am truly very happy with how I look right now

Wait, so the right doctor is just someone that will tell you what you want to hear and write what you want on their pad? That doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to find.

BTM,

Glad you went to see a competent specialist. Like I said, I have no idea who cha's guy is. But I think there's a chance that he didn't find the right doctor and instead found this:

The bolded refers to the negative side effects of trt.

I understand you are skeptical about the doctors, but when every post says "I'm guessing" "I think there's a chance" etc. it doesn't really add much to the thread. The other posts which essentially have the same guesses/conjectures but are posted in a more authoritative tone don't really add much either. Yes, a lot of doctors don't seem to know what they are doing in regards to this; if they did we probably wouldn't have the thread.

BTM,

Depending on your insurance you might have to pay a lot of $$, but I am sure a quick google search could direct you to a men's health or anti-aging clinic with someone who specializes in counseling and treating normal men who are interested in experimenting with PED's to improve their quality of life, and they will tell you exactly what you need to know.

I reckon the truth lies somewhere there, in the middle. As almost always.


Anyway, finally got my 20th of May results yesterday. They're very much in-line with my lift #s

TT, FT and E2 converted from SI-units to conventional because 'murica.
Couldn't find time to convert to ounces per gallons or whatever you'd like best so metric will have to do.

Date	Total T	Free T	Estradiol	SHBG	LH	Prolactin
Feb 6th 2015	663	11.41	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a
May 20th 2015	635	9.78	16.7	53	2.2	**

GG lifting. GG acquiring swoleness.
Time to join Monte on the sidelines.
Maybe take up knitting. Salsa dancing doesn't sound too bad, either. Soulman, please be PM'ing me your coaching deets.

Units and reference ranges are as follows:
TT = 288 - 1096 ng/dL
FT = 6.93 - 20.11 pg/mL
E2 = 44.5 nmol/L or lower
SHBG = 10-57 nmol/L
LH = 2.5-7 IU/I
Prolactin = 50 - 300 mU/l

**, Prolactin not available through the lab's online results sharing thingamabob. Need to contact someone on the phone or get an appointment. Sumsbishes.