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Old 03-12-2010, 05:12 PM   #1001
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

how much water did you drink before the weigh-in?
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:31 PM   #1002
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by sylar View Post
how much water did you drink before the weigh-in?
I know I drank almost a 1/2 gallon right before mine and ate a ton in the days leading up to it. Of course after seeing some SS eating logs, it really wasn't that much.
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:31 PM   #1003
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by MortalWombat View Post
OK, time to stop ****ing around. We started a biggest loser contest in my department at work. $20 a piece, about 10 people signed up. First weigh-in was today.

There's nothing like money and competition to motivate a person.
What kind of time frame are you looking at?
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:41 PM   #1004
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

I really think vid is real, and I am not sure they are drunk, they might be stumbling around because the trained boxer just unleashed on them.

And there is no way in a million years that was an accident...you see the other guy look at them walking by and he probably says something to his buddy. And his buddy who thinks he is tough sucker punches the girl because there is no way the boyfriend would be able to do anything vs 2 kind of big guys...or so he thought lol.

Best comment ever in the comments section:

""Why would you even think of starting **** with a guy confident enough to wear THAT track suit!"

And it is obvious without a doubt the guy is a trained boxer, probably just came from the gym with the tracksuit on lol.

And what exactly were the 2 guys running after him for at the end of the video...what were they planning to do when they caught him...they couldn't touch him haha.
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:00 PM   #1005
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

It's random someone posted that video. I had a buddy telling me bout it the other day. This could all be bull**** but he claimed the 2 dudes were pikey sp? bare knuckle boxers and wanted to try to whip a real boxer or something like that. I have no clue where he got that information or if it's true.
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:06 PM   #1006
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
so we know zach gained a bunch of weight. rip is saying some of it is lbm, while lyle is saying a lot less of it is lbm. regardless, dude got a ton stronger. would he have gotten similarly stronger if gained less weight? like, even if he only gained lyle amounts of lbm, did he still need to gain the extra fat or whatever to get that strong?
i think the answer to that is unequivocally no. it may have taken him longer, but he made all these gains on workout to workout increases. he'd end novice gains earlier and be on intermediate programming, but he'd definitely still have the potential to match (and eventually crush) those lifts at a lower bodyweight/bodyfat.
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:16 PM   #1007
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
My end goals are pretty much to be as strong as possible without compromising soccer performance and to obviously look good. I've decided an end goal weight of no more than 180 lbs is anecdotally best for soccer and if I know I want to be in the 12% body fat range at that weight, I can figure out what my LBM should be to get there. An accurate reading helps that.

Plus I guess some cool data to look at. $270 isn't that much, whatever.
Why 12%?
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:33 PM   #1008
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
i think the answer to that is unequivocally no. it may have taken him longer, but he made all these gains on workout to workout increases. he'd end novice gains earlier and be on intermediate programming, but he'd definitely still have the potential to match (and eventually crush) those lifts at a lower bodyweight/bodyfat.

This makes me think that your views in this whole controversy are colored by the fact that you did very well on SS while only gaining like 5 pounds and probably losing BF%. That is a really really flukish occurrence imo, especially for a non-obese person.

It's not clear from the details I'm aware of that Zach would have gained at a significantly higher LBM:fat ratio if he had eaten at a smaller surplus.

I mean isn't Rippetoe claiming Zach gained like 60% LBM? Assuming for the moment that's true, the implication of your statement above is that Zach would have gained at some substantially higher rate if he had bulked more slowly. That seems unrealistic to me.

If 60% is in fact high, maybe he gained at like 50% but would have gained at 55% if he had gained more slowly. NFI.



For reference I've done SS at two different levels of surplus...first three months were like 900 calories a day, the fourth month was like 1800 (these numbers are pretty vague but I have the records if it's important to figure out).

I tracked my bodyfat and weight this whole time and gained at the same 45-50% in both phases...just twice as fast (almost exactly) in that 4th month as in the preceding months.



I hope it doesn't sound like I'm disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing, just giving you my honest opinion.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:14 PM   #1009
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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What kind of time frame are you looking at?
Three months.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:43 PM   #1010
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Three months.
Based on the last few here at my workplace (and the one I am currently participating in) the winner is typically in the 13-15% range.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:47 PM   #1011
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Genz View Post
My last response in this matter. Tl;dr

From my point of view Rip put himself out there recently by going on and on about the awesome gains of Justin, AC, Zach and about how common all this is and about how everyone else is ridic. I think IIRC he is pretty clear and direct in that web radio interview a while back. If you act like that and bash other people's businesses etc. you are required to provide the best available proof imo and can't just say "I don't really care that much."
and he certainly makes profit by the 70sbig guys, who make huge claims all the time too. So he can't really hide behind just being the gym owner. Because where do you think their opinions are coming from?
Moreover he is expanding his business to certification courses so he claims to be an authority. Afterall, SS is all about the novice gains. And saying this only includes the strength but not the weight gain potential is insincere. He keeps going on about the connection of growth and gain.
Okay, so Rip makes money off of his claims and hurts other people's businesses. If Rip's claims are false then it is because he doesn't know how to use a caliper or he has intentionally exaggerated the numbers. The person who is deciding whether or not to do SS has to make a judgment on those two issues. The academic who sees those numbers has to judge whether the case study has some merit and whether to preform a more scientific study that will meet the higher standards of academia. The businessman who suffers b/c less people are buying his crap since Rippetoe made these claims has to come out with a better study showing that his crap is better than Rippetoe's crap. People should think for themselves; there is no reason Rip is obligated to do a damn thing.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:49 PM   #1012
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by milesdyson View Post
i think the answer to that is unequivocally no. it may have taken him longer, but he made all these gains on workout to workout increases. he'd end novice gains earlier and be on intermediate programming, but he'd definitely still have the potential to match (and eventually crush) those lifts at a lower bodyweight/bodyfat.
if it would have taken him longer and different programming then i would consider the answer to my question yes. or at least if i would have asked the question properly.

but i get what you are saying and it clarifies it for me.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:51 PM   #1013
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Micturition Man View Post
This makes me think that your views in this whole controversy are colored by the fact that you did very well on SS while only gaining like 5 pounds and probably losing BF%. That is a really really flukish occurrence imo, especially for a non-obese person.
meh, "muscle memory" or whatever it is played a large part. i was like 205lb at probably 15% bodyfat as a senior in high school and benched 300lb at 215 or so a couple years later. so i had built much of the muscle beforehand.

Quote:
It's not clear from the details I'm aware of that Zach would have gained at a significantly higher LBM:fat ratio if he had eaten at a smaller surplus.

I mean isn't Rippetoe claiming Zach gained like 60% LBM? Assuming for the moment that's true, the implication of your statement above is that Zach would have gained at some substantially higher rate if he had bulked more slowly. That seems unrealistic to me.
martin berkhan (username "Work") from leangains is another very respected guy in this arena, and he states pretty clearly that this is the case here, which is one of the earlier threads on lyle's forum about this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Work
No, a higher caloric surplus will cause a more rapid weight gain in both muscle and fat. That's not even up for discussion. But as the surplus increases, fat gains become progressively disproportionate to the muscle gains. Where that golden cut-off point lies is dependent on factors like training status, genetics and the training itself.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:55 PM   #1014
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
if it would have taken him longer and different programming then i would consider the answer to my question yes. or at least if i would have asked the question properly.

but i get what you are saying and it clarifies it for me.
i get it. you wanted to know if it could happen in the same timeframe, and it wouldn't.

the thing about it is the difference in time is minimal if you look at a training lifetime as a whole. the novice period is very short, relatively, whether you gain weight or not. i posted this on the SS boards, but why rip considers weight gain a sprint and training a much slower process is beyond me.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:38 PM   #1015
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Oh. My. God.

These are ****ing hilarious.

Video 1- NSFW Language

Video 2- NSFW Language
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:49 PM   #1016
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetetrown View Post
My end goals are pretty much to be as strong as possible without compromising soccer performance and to obviously look good. I've decided an end goal weight of no more than 180 lbs is anecdotally best for soccer and if I know I want to be in the 12% body fat range at that weight, I can figure out what my LBM should be to get there. An accurate reading helps that.

Plus I guess some cool data to look at. $270 isn't that much, whatever.
What height are you?
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:55 PM   #1017
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

alan aragon just registered on the SS boards fwiw. i saw elsewhere that he was waiting to respond to the "alternative to lyle" thread here. curious to see what he's going to say.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:56 PM   #1018
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

He will probably be the voice of reason.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:03 PM   #1019
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

popcorn awaiting, I think his post could go either way, he might tell them to **** themselves or he might hop on the opportunity to push more product and cater to the meatheads.
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:38 AM   #1020
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by <3_Tha_Grind View Post
Oh. My. God.

These are ****ing hilarious.

Video 1- NSFW Language

Video 2- NSFW Language
2nd one is great
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:51 AM   #1021
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

When grown men hit each other, bad things happen. lol rogged vidz
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:19 AM   #1022
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
just got 3 books. the everett oly lifting book. joe friel's cyclist training bible (in rec from poster ending weakness). and weighttraining for cyclists.

the last was for mostly out of curiosity and possibly humor. first page i turn to number one mistakes made in lifting weights is skwatting too low. "it is not necessary to perform a full skwat to improve cycling performance."

hmm, rippetoe said the opposite in ppst. im not sure who to believe here.
vic, if your oly coach got you PC'ing 195 in a couple sessions, I would not even bother to read that everett book, at least not yet. It will probably just confuse you and ingrain 2 different styles at once. Let your coach coach you since he seems to be good, and actually has you lifting heavy weights (instead of a ****ing broomstick).

Obviously rip and others are right about squatting.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:25 AM   #1023
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

man i need a pc coach. 195 is nice.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:29 AM   #1024
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

i didnt pc 195. it was a full clean.
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Old 03-13-2010, 02:32 AM   #1025
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Re: **8*8*8 March version Two(2) ***88***8

even better, because I can power clean 220 but I doubt I could do a full clean at 195, it's more difficult to perform for nubs. Either way, he has you going heavy.
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