i had mentioned this goal on another thread several weeks ago. i have been running about a year and a half after taking about 15 years off. i am trying to get sub 18 minutes by memorial day but i would be happy with anything close to 18 minutes. i have taken my training up a couple of notches in the last 6 months and feel as though i am making progress. i am currently in week 4 of my training program and so far so good.

currently running between 32 to 36 miles per week with one day off.
mix of 4 5 6 milers and one long run.

today i completed my second set of 880 repeats. 2:51 3:06 3:05 3:07 3:12 3:07

hill session coming later in the week.

is this goal attainable or am i out of my mind.

thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.

i will be very interested in seeing how this progresses as i have a very similar running goal, but i am doing quite a bit less running than you.

how much rest did you take between 880 repeats?

I'm not sure about your running background.

A good resource for trying to get an idea of how fast you can race based upon workouts or how fast to do workouts based upon how fast you race is Jack Daniel's vDot tables. An online version is:

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

Based upon the workout you posted - you could probably run sub20 minute 5k right now. That equates to a VDot of 50. To run an 18:05 5k you would need a vDot of 56. I think the general rule of thumb is that you can increase your vDot by 1 point per 6 weeks. Or it may be 0.5% a week - but the two are pretty close. But I might be wrong, I have the book at home.

Running it by Memmorial Day may be a bit tight. Decreasing weight would also increase your vDot. How fast have you run in the past and is this your first 800m workout since your comeback?

Right now I'd say you're not close and it seems very unlikely that you can make the huge improvements required in two months. You need to be able to knock out the 800m repeats in about 2:50 and mile repeats in about 5:45.

I've always found that the 3-6 month goals i set for myself usually end up taking about 18 months to achieve. Currently I'd have to guess this will be the case for you as well, but there's always a chance. Good luck.

thanks for the replies...to answer a few questions....

this was my second set of 880's very similar splits each time. the track where i run indoors is pretty tight in the turns and i start feeling a little tied up by the third or fourth rep.

rest between reps consisted of slow jog of a quarter mile or about 3 minutes.

i have some natural speed and endurance and have run more long distance in the past. 3 hour marathon, 37 minutes for 10k...but that was long ago.

someone mentioned less weight.... right now i am about 5' 9" and 142 to 145 lbs. my old running weight was around 135, but once again that was long ago.

thanks again.

good luck jacksquat

--if you decide memorial day is too soon, consider going for the sub 6 minute/mile pace 5K (18:36)

--you might try to even your interval times out, the main reason you ran 3:12 in the 5th one was because you ran too fast in the first one

--consider keeping the rests to a fixed amt of time so you can measure your progress better in future weeks

--I think you should play around with your (weekly?) VO2 workouts, don't always do the 800s week after week, experiment with different distances, rests, terrains, etc

--btw for a 49 year old, an age-graded 18:36 would be equivalent to a 16:45...not too shabby

week of march 30 thru april 5

3/30 7 mile run

3/31 off day...cold heavy rain am heavy wind pm

4/1 880 repeats aiready mentioned

4/2 easy run of about 4.25 miles

4/3 easy run of 6.25 miles

4/4 6 long hills (about 600 yds) ran these at about 90% and jogged back down the hii in between giving me about 3:30 rest between. these were tough as the hill has a pretty good rise and i was dealing with a chilly and stiff head wind. started with 2 miles to warm up and ended the day with a 6:35 mile.

4/5 stiff as a board this am...quads and my lower butt. managed to do 4.5 miles and finished with a 2:50 half mile.


all in all a good week. i think i will try to push it up this week with 3 hard days. 440 repeats, another hill workout, if i feel good maybe mile repeats.

so...you're maybe going to do three legit hard workouts in a week where your total mileage is going to top out around 35? And one of the days is mile intervals? And this is not even counting your long run?

Hey, yeah, and then you can PM King Gordy and arrange a joint thread, maybe "chicken soup--how much is too much?" or "do I have ague or consumption?" or "Hi guys, my feet/ITBs/knees have aches/pains/toxic shock syndrome and I'm supposed to workout now but I really just want to chill and watch Simpsons/clown porn/Battlestar Gallactica."

serious response--you (and KG) are great runners. You're both really motivated and it sounds like you're both talented and also tough. But in running, these good things in combination can be nitroglycerin...in running, half the battle is to not get impatient. Because impatience leads to more running, and more running leads decisively to less running. Trust me dude this isn't a spelling bee or an orgy...in running it's way better to be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained.

I say this, jacksquat, because it doesn't matter how much base you have--three hard workouts a week at 35 miles a week is too much. It might not hit you now, or in four weeks, but my friend, the ague is a comin'.

I'm obviously not suggesting that you or anybody else who is dead-set on a goal should be a jellyfish and make a pansy training plan that avoids pain and suffering and guts. Being too conservative can be at least as stupid as what you're about to do and twice as boring. But being too conservative with training is not going to be your problem. It sounds like your problem is that you are going to be tempted to go all Captain Ahab and get so caught up in your arbitrary memorial day sperm whale that you make large--and largely avoidable--training mistakes.

OK, I just reread your OP and it sounds like you clearly have a base, and also like MAYBE you've been ramping up the intensity at a reasonable rate, although I kind of have my doubts if you currently have visions of three effective hard workouts a week on <50 miles. Anyway, at this point in training for a 5K, your hard workouts should be like maybe 50% VO2 workouts, 35% tempo workouts and 15% repeat workouts, with maybe a race sprinkled in every month or so. At 40 miles a week, each week should probably include, I dunno, one long run, and one or two hard workouts--which does not mean two every freaking week--and then a bunch of easier runs to fill out your mileage, with maybe some strides thrown in at the end of some of them. And variety is always good no matter what kind of workout program any of us are on, which you can get in a million ways, hill training, trail running, plyometric stuff, form drills, interesting races, weightlifting, cross-training, etc ad infinitum, and of course generally not getting in a rut with doing the same VO2 workouts or tempo workouts or routes over and over again. Anyway, this paragraph would be my rough advice for what you should do if you were planning on peaking for a 5K in, say...mid-July. You spent the last year earning an good base...now build on it.

Cliff Notes--too much speedy speedy you greedy

fwiw week of 4/6 thu 4/12

4/6 8 miles

4/7 4+ miles

4/8 1.5 miles warm up....6x 440 90 seconds, 86, 84,86,84, 83. didn't really push hard at all, and felt great, even though it was raining thougout the workout.

4/9 4+ miles

4/10 7 miles

4/11 5.5 miles

4/12 4.5 miles...ran a nice pace and finished with a 6:10 mile

total was about 35 miles or so. i didn't get much speed work done as the weather was pretty dismal all week. lots of wind and rain and somewhat chilly temps. the good news i am feeling really good right now.

Jack Daniels is awesome. In high school I used his book as the foundation of my training programs for cross country (5k) and track (800/1500).

Biggest thing about training in general is that you have to be flexible with your workouts, and to listen to your body. There's a fine line between being lazy and actually needing to rest your legs.

i agree about listening to your body, but i feel i could have done a bit more this week. maybe it is a good thing that the weather was so crappy, as i am feeling the best i have felt since i started this program.

i was going through that tired/dead legs a week or so ago, but now i feel rejuvenated.

Sorry if this is kind of off topic but is it a decided disadvantage for 5k runners to be carrying a lot of muscle mass? I ask because a friend who is 6"1 190 pounds 6-7% BF consistently blitzes his (skinny) competition in our college meets. He's also a superb 800 & 1500m runner. Obviously he's a genetic freak, but would his performance improve significantly if he were lighter?

Btw, great post bellytimber - got a lot out of it.

Demon,

What are his 800 and 1500 times? We had a kid on my college team who was similar size and ran a 2:31 1000 indoors, but almost certainly would have been faster had he shed some of the excess weight.

yeah, I think so. Exhibit A would probably be every olympics ever, where the 5K guys are still mostly made out of two mighty legs striding around giving a free ride to one giant heart, two giant lungs, and two dozen ribs that you can easily see & count. Even Alan Webb, who looks huge compared to most short distance runners, comes in at 5'9" 140

from an article that got linked in one of these threads:

"If you put more muscles on the upper body, you are going to run slower. For every kilogram you have in fat-free body weight, it requires 0.17 milliliters of oxygen to run every meter. So if you are a road runner and you come to a hill, and you got more kilos in your knees, you are going to go up that hill slower, you are going to burn up more energy. If you are a steeplechaser and you have to lift that extra weight over those fences, you are going to run slower. You are wasting energy with those extra kilos. Lasse Viren, who I worked with in Finland, when he took his shirt off, he looked like a plucked chicken."

by the way, here's an article from today's nytimes on sarah hall, she's a USA track star (married to Ryan Hall, the US dude who just ran a 2:06 marathon in London...so we can expect their kid in say the 2036 Olympics held in either Havana or Tripoli). Anyway, the article gets a B-, but it's short and might be worth it just to see some of the form drills (there's a video too) and also her rough schedule--she just switched from the 5K to the 1500, so she's cut her mileage down to 90/week (heh), and the main reason I'm mentioning it is because she's still only doing two hard interval workouts/week.

week of 4/13 thru 4/19


4/13 8.5 miles

4/14 4.5 miles

4/15 8x 880 repeats in 3:00 3:00 3:01 3:01 3:04 3:03 3:03 3:01
1.5 miles warm up and jogged/walked 2:30 in between. i was happy
with the times considering my feet felt and sounded like a clydesdale
during the session.

4/16 4+ miles

4/17 7.5 miles finished with a 6:30 mile

4/18 3 miles warmup followed by 5x 600 yds long hills

4/19 5.5 miles slow as hell. to much beer and saki last night

still feeling pretty good over all.

last thre days of training........


4/20 about 9.5 miles with a mile of various stuff after


4/21 4.5 miles... about 30 seconds per mile faster than usual. i felt really
good today....legs were very lively

4/22 today....1.5 warm up. 8x 440 repeats with a minute to a minute and
a half between. times were 84 secs, 83, 84, 85, 84, 83, 84, 83. 1.5 miles after.

4/23 will be the first off day this month as i will be traveling all day. i am
i am going to central america, where i will be at altitude for one week
and sea level with hot temps and high humidity, the second week
just hoping to keep up with the program.

I never ran intervals. They hurt more than races.
Never ran in school. Didn't start running until I was 37.
Within 2 years was able to run 36:03 in the 10K.

Tried it once. Think I ran 12 at 85. Hurt so much, I never ran an interval again.
Just run an occasional sub 6 minute in training. Not more than two or three a week.
Run a road race every two or three weeks. That's plenty of speedwork.

So given your 10k time, you could run 25 consecutive laps under 87s (probably faster given that your 10k was likely a road race and track times are typically faster) but 12 repeats at 85 hurt so bad they put you out of the business. hm. It seems like you have significant talent that went underdeveloped.

i am back from vacation as of tuesday morning. i was able to keep up with my running program for the most part, but i didn't do any kind of speed work due to the poor running conditions. cobblestones, brick pavers, uneven dirt roads, and soft sand, made for less than ideal running grounds. i was also dealing with extreme heat and humidity for about 4 days.

4/24 thru 5/5 mostly 4 to 5 mile runs with two 7 milers in there somewhere. mileages are only estimates, but should be mostly accurate going on time.


5/6 ran 5.5 miles today and felt really good. ran a bit faster than normal pace.



5/7 3.5 miles warm up, walk 5 minutes, ran 6:05 mile, about 1+ miles jog-walk-jog afterwords. really didn't feel like running today, so i feel good about the one mile time.

planning on 880's tomorrow

5/8....weather turned chilly and widy and my whole body was really tight. ran about 3.5 miles did 4 long hills, finished with another mile or so. about 5.5 total miles.

5/9....cool morning and again felt really tight, maybe the weather change, who knows. ran 3.5 miles then did 4 880s brutally slow. about 5 total miles.

5/10....felt somewhat less tight ran 5.5 miles at normal pace.

5/11.....horrible weather cool, heavy rain, and windy. was planning 8 or 9 mile run but was forced to go to the indoor track. (which i don't like) did about 6.5 miles. there were two young girls who were training at the track and man, could they run. i tried to run some fast laps with them, and i could keep up in short spurts, but they wore out my tired old ass. still a nice workout.

5/12....4.5 miles, i am feeeling those fast laps from yesterday.

5/13..... really windy today. 1.5 miles warm-up. 8x 440 with heavy crosswinds. @ 86 seconds, 85, 84, 86, 85, 84, 82, 83 finished with one 880 working on form. jog walk 1 mile to finish. about 5 miles total.

Did run a 10 mile race in 59:29 once. That's like 31 1/4's in 89 and 9 1/4's in 90.
Totally flat course with only 3 or 4 turns.

Right, I think BB's point is just that with a 10K time like you had, an interval workout of 12 x 400 @ 1:25 should have been a breeze. For example, with a 10K time like you had, then you should have had no problem running a 5K in 17:30, and right there that's 12 x 400 @ 1:24...without any breaks.

But sorry for threadjack, moving on, I haven't been keeping up with the log, but it looks like you have a decent balance of mileage and easy runs and longer runs and hard workouts, so that's terrific. It doesn't look like you ever do designed tempo runs, and even for a 5K I would argue that tempo runs are at least as important as 400m repeats. It seems like you want to make 400m repeats your bread-and-butter workout, but for 5K training I think you should do longer intervals, 400 repeats just don't spend enough time making your body work at VO2 intensity.

Looks like you've been ramping up your long runs patiently, good job. I don't know when you're planning to cap them, but for medium mileage 5K training I don't think there's any need to do long runs of more than 12 miles, and 10 is probably fine. To support a 12 mile long run you really need to be running at least 35-40 total miles a week, but like I said, so far you've seemed pretty in balance.

My advice is to consider experimenting with different types of interval workouts, and to think about replacing a hard workout with a tempo workout every other week or so. My favorite workout that you're doing is the long hills. Also think about sprinkling a race in every month or so, would be good both as a workout and a benchmark. GL