Its interesting that he says "I had a revelation, i started to realise, the line doesn't matter at all, its the delivery!", and "I find that all I have to do is sit back and smile during the awkward moments, and everyone feels good".

Doesn't this wipe out 90% of PUA material, with the revelation that it all doesn't really matter, and that its the finer less tangible things that matter?

yeah true the time limit thing was ridicilous. Also pretty funny to hear that black dude say 'hes actually listening to the female!'. Like it was some kind of machine lol. Thats kinda the problem with alot of these pua guys, they see women as machines they use for theyr pleasure. And when they get laid, and lady in question gets to know em better, they figure it out and get enough of it really quick. They dont really see em as human beings. (dont ***** deny this pua fanboys)
But I think the pua scene does have some interesting points, the key is (if you have no game etc) to pick out the few usefull things, and not become one of those freaks. And just go out and have fun.

And arturius, i think the point is, they learn this stuff, get laid, go up in the food chain a bit, and gain alot of confidence that way. When they reach that point they dont really need all that stuff anymore? Thats what im guessing happened with that cajun dude.

Pua stuff is like me on 2p2, i do make some really ******ed posts, but once in a while i actually do make some interesting points. key is to filter that out!

It should be pretty easy to do actually. Take PUA student out -- if he doesn't get laid that is a negative. If he does that is a positive. Repeat a few more times just to cancel out luck / bad nights. That aside though I agree there is no way to convince them by discussion as they are just too invested in the delusion of this silver bullet. I have no desire to change their minds though. I'm more interested in how they think about the subject.

i think it was strongly implied previous poster was talking about you at least as much as the people on the other side. and your suggested experiment doesn't really solve this question, because for most people who do this, their baseline is never picking up random women, and you really need to compare it to what people were doing before they started doing the PUA stuff. also, weren't you supposed to go out and give us a trip report with your experiences?

Actually I'd say it was more directed at me than at the other side. I choose to ignore that in hopes of getting him to pursue it further. It appeared that he did post a second reply but deleted it before I got around to reading it.

I don't agree with this. The correct comparison is against all possible options available to the individual. As such it should be compared to the baseline for normal guys. Instead of wasting their time studying PUA they could have spent that time becoming a normal guy.

Anyway reading your objection to my test seems to be that a PUA student would fail. Isn't one of the claims of PUA that you'll get laid consistently? How can a failure in getting laid not be a failure of PUA?

The contact from the local "lair" stopped responding. I'll send him another e-mail.

Wow, I never read the EDF forum but just randomly stumbled across this behemoth of a thread and after only reading just a few posts I already feel overwhelmed/exhausted at the idea of coming in here to really dispel a lot of misconceptions and ideas people have about "PUA" and what it's all about.

Speaking as someone who has gone from having no game or social prowess with women to having shattered my own previous realities of what's possible, spent time coaching/helping other guys, helping to instruct for workshops, taken workshops myself, etc... I can say that the Game is real and the PUA approach is like anything else in this world... most people misapply/misunderstand it... thus really have no idea wtf they are doing.

It is also something that most guys who are already naturally social can't relate to because they never seek out any resources to help them improve that area of their lives.

But the benefit for those who do begin to work on it though is that you can end up becoming FAR better than the "average" guy who gets a girlfriend here and there or that hopes to go out to bars and just "get lucky" to score a lay. Once you really get it down it gives you full control over that area of your life to the extent that most guys don't have. Your average male does NOT have options of what girls he can sleep with, be in relationships with... to pick and chose from, it's usually limited to girls within his social circle or girls that chose to be interested in them.

Obviously this varies from guy to guy and some guys do have options but your average guy can't walk into a bar/club and get makeouts/lays with any sort of repeatable consistency on his own merit and purely of his own doing. Most guys who do naturally get women typically get them through their social circle which is perfectly fine but it's not giving you the full out freedom/ability/skill to produce results on your own merit.. and as a poker player if you like to travel and go to new places where you don't already have a social base to help you get girls through, having that skill set is extremely convenient.

I've had nights out where girls literally have gotten into arguments and wanted to fight over just who got to talk to me and got my attention, girls running up to me in the club mentioning how they were just waiting for their chance to talk to me because I was occupied the whole night, girls asking me for my autograph because they just assume that I'm some sort of celebrity due to the attention I'm getting from women in the venue, make outs with 8 different girls (that don't know each other and aren't there with each other) in a single club in one night, guys trying to pull me into their group to buy me shots just because they notice the attention I'm getting from the women in the club, etc... just things that a regular average social guy could never produce. This coming from a person that previously was painfully shy with social issues due to spending too much time playing computer games.

This topic is certainly one I find interesting and would love to jump into the discussion but will have to try to get caught up on everything being discussed when I get more free time.

Since you really seem to be a strong presence in this thread as someone who is opposed to the entire PUA mentality, can you please state your skills/ability/experience with women? You mention that he really has no game so I am interested in getting an understanding of your perspective and criteria that you are basing these opinions off.

Do you actually have lots of experience going out and getting results with women? Are you better than him? You seem to have a lot of excuses and rationalizations for what happened in that short clip that really couldn't give you much insight into his skills with women. It's like trying to assess how good someone is in poker by watching them play a few hands on TV here and there.

As far as what the show allows for and what can be shown on TV, what really are you expecting him to do? Get the girl to drop to her knees giving him a BJ in the middle of the venue while the editors of the show just blurr out the fine details?

This statement comes across as obnoxiously ignorant considering the cousin/student is someone that is currently in the process of working on his game. Cajun didn't always have that confidence that he displayed with women in the show. The mere fact that you notice a distinct difference in their skill level shows that the game is real, can be learned, and improved upon.

So you are assuming that Cajun can't get women to go home with him? Once again it's kind of hard to really even engage in a discussion with you about this without knowing your level of game with women, in the same manner that it's hard to really discuss poker hands with someone at a different skill level/stake because the game is played differently, with varying degrees of understanding, and lots of limiting beliefs as to what's possible.

For example a newbie trying to be explained why a river bluff raise all in is a winning play when it's outside their reality and they are making assumptions about what will happen when you do it, without actually having any experience attempting to do it.. just making assumptions based on their limited knowledge/experience of it.

This is a ridiculous mentality to have. Success is a relative term that varies from person to person. For someone that has never in their life talked to a girl, had a girlfriend, or much experience at all with a female, getting a phone # is a STEPPING stone in the right direction that represents IMPROVEMENT. It is a success for that particular individual because previously for them, it was something they never were able to do.

The mere fact that you don't view it as a success just means that you are already at that level of being able to get phone #s, but the thing is... someone who was previously not on the same level with you is steadily gaining progress in the right direction to not only catch up to you skill wise but inevitably pass you. Phone #s become more frequent, eventually turn to make outs, eventually turn to dates, eventually turn to lays.

Now I didn't scroll back far enough to even read what you are referring to, but if the person in question that got a phone # is already at the level where getting phone #s is easy, then yeah it's not a success to you, but they don't consider it a success either if they are at a higher level in the game. Point is though your whole logic of what's a success and what's not is just incorrect. Someone learning how to beat $25nl that previously was beating $10nl is a success, someone already beating $100nl going and winning at $25nl is not a success, it's all relative.

I guess I'll stop for now, but am interested in reading the thread later to get caught up on some of the various arguments being thrown around in the thread.

I assume you plan to dispel these? As you do so though I hope you don't confuse something you do personally that happens to be tangential to what the PUA community does with what PUA actually is.

Are you willing to replicate while being observed?

I don't know why but the way your worded that reminded me of something someone would ask someone about their D&D character. I do well with girls.

Pretty much everyone with any socialization is better than him.

He stood upright. That is the only positive thing I can say about him. I was going to add that he spoke English but to be honest he'd probably be better off not speaking given how bad he is at it.

You can actually tell a lot about how someone plays poker in a very small sample of hands.

Nothing -- I was just pointing out the limitation. The show is a meaningless test that has nothing to do with real life.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Cajun has confidence but he is still a complete tool. If you want unwarranted confidence I suggest doing a few lines. Let me try again. Cajun has no game but he does have confidence and is willing to churn volume so he'll get laid. He is limited to picking up girls who go to collage type bars and he needs them to be a little wasted. Outside that environment he is limited to girls that you'd typically call sevens. That I said he'll get laid isn't because I think his game is any good -- it isn't -- but that he is willing to go after low hanging fruit and put in a lot of volume.

In the right environment he can. That isn't a skill that I find impressive. He is a one trick pony that gets shot down the vast majority of the time but just keeps going. Anyone who is persistent and not a social ****** can get laid in that environment.

What the **** are you talking about? Simply because 2P2 is a poker site doesn't mean that every post has to have a poker analogy. If your point is to imply that I don't have as much experience as Cajun and that I might not get what he is doing that is somewhat laughable.

Nope. Sorry. Getting a number is not a success even in a relative way. I can choose to be very "scary" for lack of a better word and I'll get a girl's number. I can just be annoying and I'll get her number. I can go up to drunk girls and get their number by doing whatever. None of this matters since the gain in getting a number is that the girl actually wants you to use it. Just getting a number is meaningless.

That is the problem with PUA is that they make it seem like this matters when it doesn't. Getting ten numbers because ten girls want you to leave them alone and they have no intention of ever taking your call or seeing you again is not a positive. The reason PUA stresses this is because it is easily quantifiable and nerds love stuff that they can keep score with. It is also something that is very easy to do which gives them the impression that they are making progress.

I never get phone numbers. I see no value in it.

Couldn't end a post without a poker analogy. This one is just plain wrong. The assumption it makes is that getting a phone number and getting a girl to go out with you are the same skill set but just at different levels of proficiency. Not true or even close to being true. Girls give out their numbers freely to most people -- that doesn't mean they have any interest in seeing you or that they will ever take your call. The vast majority of numbers given out at clubs are just polite ways to make guys go away. Basing a system on counting phone numbers as a plus is going to lead to an insane number of false positives -- especially for people who do the cocky -- funny thing.

Flawless,

You are the latest in a long line of posters who have tried to convince Henry that there is real value in PUA. We have all given up trying to convince someone for their own good. If he thinks that game is worthless, let him believe it. I have given out PUA to every guy i know to help them and have seen all of their results improve, thats enough for me.

Its not about teaching dorks how to use tricks to seduce women. Its about helping normal, shy guys that just had no schooling on how to interact with females come out of their shells because they have confidence in what they are saying will produce desired results. Henry and some others seem to think that if you aren't born with that innately, you are some sort of social misfit and second class citizen who needs hocus pocus to talk to a hot chick and you will not convince him otherwise.

freerollin, thats a huge strawman. You're saying that its PUA or social ineptitude, since when does Henry or anyone else believe that?

Art,

No, but wasn't the point of your TR to say that it wasn't PUA that allowed you to get that girl, but you simply being human? And that PUA can't teach you to be "human"? There are literally millions of guys out there that aren't born with and don't know how to be "human" (which i take to mean comfortable, affable, social, being able to pick up girls or whatever you mean by that) because they were late bloomers, or shy, or had bad experiences and never tried again, or whatever. So they seek out knowledge in order to learn that humaness(?) that seemed to come naturally to you and Henry. Who cares that they had to learn it from somewhere and fake it before it was normal to them. Where else are they supposed to learn knowledge that helps them become more social? Trial and error? hang out with guys who it does come natural? What are they supposed to do if they are dissatisfied with their results, accept it?

It sort of bothers me that a group of guys who sit around playing a silly card game have contempt for guy's whose hobby is dating attractive women. Why do you all get to join forums, share idea's, pay for training sites, etc. and they dont? They're weird and you're not? Its at the very best being pretty judgmental and at the worst laughably hypocritical.

like i said, i'm done arguing with you guys. PUA is a worthless bag of tricks and mumbo jumbo and it NEVER works. No one who seeks it out will have even the slightest improvement in their results with women and therefore it is a hudge waste of time unlike learning to sit for hours staring into a screen playing a card game

Once again, you're not proving PUA, you're proving being social is good and people should be trying to do that.

I've said the whole way in this thread that the journey to becoming a better person isn't picking a book off the shelf and trying some lines on girls. Until you learn 'why', you're not going to get anywhere, its that simple. You talk about these people as if they're fragile and need guidance, and your advice is to throw them in the deep end, subjecting them to the single bar pick up scene? I mean, this is such a terrible idea for building someones self esteem. henry's right, what are they going to do, get a number and think its an accomplishment? Go out with a girl a few times and have her blow you off because she knows you're a fake person?

If you wear a mask, soon you forget where the mask is and where you begin. Why not go meet people, socialise with them, have deep conversation, and attempt to find that inner person you've been hiding because of fear of ridicule? Why, if you're a social reject, do you go down the same path you did before, hiding yourself to the world, but this time masking it with a drink in your hand, $400 worth of clothes, and a book of seduction tips?

Too many guys would get eaten alive trying this stuff, and even if the shallow persona works, in 10 years time they'll sit back and ask what the **** they are. And even if they don't, maybe then they didn't set the bar high enough, to be able to talk to good looking women is such a crappy standard to aim for, for anyone. It reeks of some high school revenge plot, where the guy with no friend or women sits back and plots his revenge, thinking 'rraarr I'm going to have a hot wife and fast cars and show you all'. But this thinking misses the point enitrely, its trying to trump a shallow world by being shallower and exploiting small ideas to try and fake it.

The whole thing is philosophically bankrupt. Why not try and make real relationships with people, work on projects that better the world, even take part in volunteer work, and getting better at understanding social dynamics so you can make better contact with not only randoms at bars, but also your family, and people you're already friends with. But no, lets pick up a book and goto bars and think this will validate our existence! Then one day, a guy with none of these things who puts no effort into any of this stuff will steal away a girl you really like from you, and your only answer is to surpress your rage, because instead of bothering to develop your psyche to handle situations, or develop real relationships with people that give you comfort and support, you just revert back to how you handled trauma before you were a "PUA player"; you get angsty and begin to resent the world.

I agree. I discuss things related to the game because I find it interesting and know that it's real... simply from the massive changes as a person it's given me in my own life. I'm not here to change anyone's mind because some people are stuck in their views and that's just how life is, but I do find it to be a more interesting way for me to blow time (that I really shouldn't be wasting) than reading other threads on 2p2.

You are exactly right though about what the value in PUA is. It's simply about teaching guys how to get better and more consistent results with women, expanding their options, and being a more social being in general. The fact that a guy who has never had a girlfriend in his life can actually go out there, work on certain skills, practice, and watch his results improve drastically over time is something that cannot be argued against because there's really not much room open for interpretation. The fact of the matter is he previously had 0 girls in his life and even just having 1 girlfriend more than he had previously adds to his quality of life, which is precisely what the value is.

I honestly can't say though that I have the energy/time to go back through this entire thread and catch up in the discussion, but it seems to certainly be an interesting debate that nonetheless. We'll see how long before I get bored.

I'm not really sure what you believe the PUA community to be about but really that varies from person to person since everyone that gets into it have different goals in mind. At a core level for the most part though guys are looking to gain comfort and confidence around women and expand their options available to them in the long run. As far as that being the main goal, the PUA community is highly successful for those who actively put in the work to achieve those results.

I'm not sure if you think the PUA community is about guys trying to hypnotize hot model chicks into bed with cool one liners or what, but that's not what it's about at all, although that's what the general public may interpret it as. The lines/routines/stories/games and all that are just simply tools that give guys who don't naturally think of things to say around a woman ways to stay in there and at least gain experience being in the presence of women while attempting to carry on a conversation. Having one-liners or stories memorized is not the long term objective here, they are just used as training wheels to get guys more comfortable with talking in general with women.

If you send a guy who has no skills with women in to talk to a woman the typical problem/response is "I don't know what to say", so how is a guy supposed to get comfortable with the act of talking with a woman if his mind keeps going blank and he runs out of things to say... resulting in the girl eventually turning her back on him and leaving? I took a friend of mine that I helped/coached from not being able to even get the balls to approach a girl to the point of being able to confidently approach girls and get into hour long conversations with them, and eventually getting himself his first real girlfriend. If you can't really appreciate guys making improvements in their lives and getting something as a result of practicing it and improving... then you live in a cold world man. Skills with women are similar to social skills in general, you work on them, practice, get better, and eventually get caught up to and pass peers of yours that learned naturally.

Yes, I've done this before in the presence of guys I've helped with game although I would never claim it to be something that happens ALL the time with tons of consistency/regularity, nor does it need to be. As long as I can consistently have options with women I'm content. I only mention that because those are things that I had never experienced or deemed possible at one point long ago that just represent the improvements I made.

I'm not going out of my way to prove anything to naysayers who are going to see things how they want regardless though. The point of the game isn't to be able to do all kinds of fancy **** to stroke your ego, it's just to gain options and skill with women, simple as that. So for a guy who used to just get a girlfriend here or there through his social circle to be able to do that, it represents enormous progress... once again if you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you.

I know why, because you have the need for some reason or another to associate anyone involved with the game community to be a huge nerd so you can feel you are superior to them.

Why can't you have a serious discussion about it? This statement is rather ridiculous and clearly trying way too hard to disapprove of anything related to "PUA" in anyway.

lol what exactly do you classify as game? Explain what you are looking for in assessing how good someones game is.

Considering we are on a poker forum as a common interest it is perfectly normal to assume it can be used as a medium to use for analogies. You are wound up way too tight.

This is wrong. A guy whose goal is to improve his confidence and skills with women that previously was not able to get phone #s is a small success in the right direction. It is very simple to understand. For a guy that is looking to get better with women, him being able to talk to a woman and get her phone # is doing something better than he was doing before.

You seem to have an all or nothing mentality which is precisely the type of mentality that people who can't get anywhere have. You want everything immediately and if you don't get it then you're ready to quit at a moments notice or feel like a failure because you're not getting what you want fast enough. What's so hard to understand that a guy who previously wasn't able to talk to girls and get a phone # that can actually do that now is making progress, and thus progress represents success because it's improving towards the ultimate goal.

The better you get at the game, the more the phone #s actually convert into something real. It's understandable for you to think a phone # is meaningless since for most guys, getting a phone # typically represents getting flaked on or no response, but the better you get.. the more those phone #s lead to meeting back up with the girl and getting to see her again. Also, getting a girls phone # doesn't have to just be at night so I'm really not sure what gave you that impression. Getting a girls phone # during the day typically has a higher success rate.

For some guys, when a girl gives them a phone # it means she actually is interested in hearing from the guy when he calls. Just because this does not happen for you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a very standard process to get a girls phone # first and then call her up to talk and set up plans to see her again.

Statements like these is why I wanted to know your skill level with women since for you, you have lots of limiting beliefs about what's possible and what actually goes on. You seem to deny the fact that being able to get a woman's phone # actually can lead somewhere and that the better you are, the more often that ends up being the scenario. You don't think girls give their #s to guys they are interested in as well? If they do, well then clearly on the surface you won't be able to tell if she's interested or not because it will look the same, but once you actually do get better at striking girls interest, the more those phone #s convert into dates, lays, or girlfriends. I guess this statement of yours alone gives me an idea of where you are at gamewise.

Your theory sounds nice on paper but it doesn't work that way. A guy that doesn't have that ability/skill CAN'T go meet people, CAN'T socialize with them, and CAN'T have deep conversation because those are things that he has NOT learned how to do yet with any proficiency. I mean he can try but one of the first roadblocks he will hit is that he doesn't know what to say because he isn't comfortable socially, which is where simply having something/anything to say by way of lines/routines serves it's purpose. If he could already do those things he would already have been doing them and probably would never have found the game to begin with. You can't tell someone who lacks social skills with women or in general to just go out there and do things that he doesn't know how to do.

It's like telling someone that's trying to learn how to ride a bike to just get on the thing and ride the bike. The very act that you are suggesting for them to go do is the very skill that they are lacking. The 'social mask' that you refer to comes into place because guys are saying things like routines they aren't congruent with simply for the sake of giving them practice in just talking to women. When a guy gets comfortable simply with the act of approaching women and talking to them he then will gain more natural ability to talk to the women in the same manner he talks to other people in his life he is already comfortable with such as friends and family.

When a guy is not comfortable and gets nervous, this prevents them from being able to simply interact in a normal way that they do around everyone else... this should be understood considering people get tongue tied during oral presentations or simply don't have as many things to talk about when meeting new people in general.

The frame you are taking is... you're looking at it as a bunch of nerds who want to go out there memorizing lines for the sake of getting panties off the girl when it's not about that. If you believe that a man that is simply normal/social should be able to get a woman then that's true, but what if a guy isn't comfortable around women and can't be his normal self? Or what if the guys normal self simply isn't interesting to a woman at all? Then what? Just continue being themselves and getting no attention from women? If you agree that they should take action and do something about it, well then what's the next step?

They don't know what to say to a woman and if they approach them with nothing to say then they don't stay in conversation long at all and the women just leaves. This is why in the beginning for the newbies, having routines and lines simply is used as something that gives them something/anything to talk about which gives them more experience simply being social with a woman. The more experience a guy gets being social with women the more his confidence grows, the more his confidence the more comfortable he gets... once he gets comfortable with women he no longer needs any lines or this "social mask" that you speak of because now he is comfortable talking to her and will be able to just be himself without depending on any one-liners or routines.

The other thing though is that once the guy then learns how to just be normal/social with women he will indeed get 'normal' results (which for the average guy isn't much), but that's where learning the real "game" (skill wise) comes into play because he can learn various ways to interact with her that spikes more attraction and connects with her emotionally that most guys simply don't do. Having a normal conversation with a female will not be enough to make her attracted to you with any consistency if your 'normal' way of talking to her is just that of a nice/normal guy. A lot of guys first start off below average socially and then need to get comfortable just being normal... get caught up to speed. Then once they are there they can then learn better techniques for developing attraction from women and being able to build connections with them. If the whole premise of the game community was just about a buncha guys whose only goal is to learn some tricks to get panties off then yeah it would obviously be bull sh*t because for one it wouldn't even work, and for 2 it would be incredibly fake.

If a guy is still using pick up lines and wearing this social mask you speak of after 10 years then they are doing it wrong. When I learned game I used lines/routines for maybe a few months of consistently going out and by then it was no longer needed. The lines/routines are just training wheels to carry you through the interaction until you get confident/social enough to do it on your own.

If you are of the belief that the average guy can walk up to a girl in a bar and actually engage in an interesting conversation that gets the girl interested enough in meeting them later to go on a date then you are very very mistaken. If you believe the average guy knows how to attract a women using his social abilities then once again, not the case. The average man sleeps with how many partners in his life time? I believe I read 4-5 or something somewhere? Too lazy to check right now but it's extremely low compared with a male that has options.

Working on your skills with women is no different than working on improving any other area of your life. You want better results? Put in the work to get them. This is a proven and tried method of improving your results with women and there's no denying that.

That is actually what the community is about... you develop skills with women to then decide where you want to steer the relationship. If you want a f*ckbuddy do that, if you like her and want a girlfriend do that, if you just want sex then the options yours. Very few of the companies out there are trying to teach guys just how to **** a buncha chicks, they are geared towards just giving guys the ability to produce options, and then from there.. whatever that persons interests/morals/ethics are will dictate what they do with those options.

Yeah statements like this show a true misunderstanding of what the community really entails. The skills you learn in the game enhance your ability to connect with everyone you interact with and help you learn how to meet new people easier. My relationships with family and friends have all improved as a result of working on game... that's value being added to my quality of life that even though you might not appreciate, some people do.

As for doing volunteer work or something more groundbreaking, well what certain people deem as priorities in their lives varies, but for the most part being able to have the ability to have sex with women and have meaningful relationships is something a lot of guys place value on.

I haven't read the entire thread but it really seems that you get a lot of your views about what the community/PUA is about from Mystery's TV show or some commercialized BS like that. There's far more to the community than that and really it's simply about men who want to improve their social skills so they can have better relationships with women and people in general. The silly lines or routines you see on TV are just things newbies are using as a means of keeping conversation going with girls, and regardless of whether or not YOU find it lame/unfunny what they are saying, girls respond to it because they are different than men.

Yep.

Yep.

Basically what I said.

That's because the 'creepy stuff' is just used as a learning tool in the beginning when you are still learning for the reasons I mentioned in my other post.

This really is the same thing as approaching it's just doing it in a way that's allowing you an easy exit if you get rejected so that it doesn't have to be a stroke to your ego. If someone wanted to twist this around and make it out to be some nerdy strategy that looks bad on paper they could as well, but really it's just another way of playing the game. The important thing for you to realize though is that for a guy who is not comfortable first and foremost they will be incongruent trying to do something like this so even if they did successfully get the girl to come over it will be blown anyway once talking to the girl since they don't have the charisma/charm/social skill (whatever you want to call it) to get anywhere from that point on anyway.

I'm not sure if you are offering this story (yet) as a way of suggesting how to game a girl in a better way or whatever but if that's the case you have to realize most guys won't be congruent doing something like this and that the only way to get comfortable doing something like this is by getting more experience with women. That experience comes from doing the approaches since some guy attempting to do this who is clearly not congruent will just get ignored.

Even something as simple as this humorous childlike game you guys are playing is something that a lot of guys will not naturally think of because they haven't learned how. A guy that has gained confdience with women can do things like this no problem but offering this as a better alternative to game completely misses the point.

You are playing the same game that all other guys are playing... is your point here that you are better? A guy that didn't learn how to do this naturally simply cannot think of these things or even know how to do soemthing like this because they lack the foundation.

This essentially is the same thing as any other routine within the community, the advanced "PUA"s think of their own similar games/role playing like this all the time. Telling some newbie though to just go in there and do this would be a horribly failed attempt at helping a guy be successful with women. If you took this approach and tried to help out 100 lames improve their succses with women compared with someone teaching a guy using methods from the community the disparity in the results would be huge. You just gonna tell the guy to go in there and be "cool", "natural", "funny"? That won't work. If you don't know how to dance for **** and someone tells you to just get on the dance floor and "feel the music" is that going to help as much as someone offering you dance lessons in a structured fashion?

Stopped reading here since this really is just a standard approach that offers nothing new. The only thing just happens to be you are further ahead game wise than newbies with no real insight into how to teach someone who isn't a natural how to catch up to you.

The others offered the same criticism I did basically. The thing you are not realizing is that just telling someone to "be human" isn't going to allow them to just automatically have things click in their brain to be able to go out and do that. Fortunately for you, you learned how to naturally do this because if you had to learn it from scratch, your limiting beliefs seem as though they would really prevent you from being able to do it.

Yep.

Yep.

Perfect.

And here come the excuses. Why is it that all the PUA guys claims this works but when I say great lets put $50k on it all of the sudden the excuses start coming out.

Picking up women is not something that is open to interpretation she either goes home and has sex with you or she doesn't.

That is a serious discussion. The cousin did nothing right.

The whole point is that there is no universal "game" it is all situational based. One of the problems with PUA is that it doesn't get that.

I can walk into a club and get twenty numbers acting in a way that a girl will give me a number just to make me go away. That is not a success. At minimum if you want to call getting a number a success you have to hold off until the girl answers the phone and agrees to go out with the guy. The number itself is meaningless.

You got me. Are you this good at reading situations with girls?

Of course it does since people are rarely drunk during the day.

I don't know if it would happen to me or not. I've never asked for numbers and never will. It doesn't fit with what I do. That being said most of my friends are female and I know for a fact they give out their number to make guys go away all the time. You don't have to take my word for it though. The Washington DC PUA Guru guy himself stated that a very small percentage of numbers actually lead to anything. Also if you go onto any PUA site the topic of why did I get the number but can't advance appears multiple times on every site.

No. I deny calling it a win to get a phone number. Unless you get a date or you get the girl to come out with you. PUA wants to count getting phone numbers as wins. A phone number is meaningless unless the girl is willing to be contacted and come out to see the guy.

Of course they do. I just know what the ratios are. I also don't see the need to rush and call getting a phone number a victory. Count it as nothing and when you call the girl if she agrees to go out with you then it is a victory otherwise it is seven numbers on a piece of paper. It seems really desperate of PUA to need to chalk up victories at the earliest time. You can count it as a win when you actually get a date not a number.

[quote] If they do, well then clearly on the surface you won't be able to tell if she's interested or not because it will look the same, but once you actually do get better at striking girls interest, the more those phone #s convert into dates, lays, or girlfriends. I guess this statement of yours alone gives me an idea of where you are at gamewise. [quote]

Good read.

The problem is that at some point the guy choose to devote time to certain activities to a point where he failed to develop social skills. It could be a lot of things but playing too much poker / video games is probably a common one on 2P2. So now he is twenty-something and all the **** he was suppose to learn as a teen he doesn't know. Along comes some guy trying to make some money / gain some notoriety who tells the guy that he has a silver bullet that will fix all the guys problems. Teaches the guy a bunch of crap. If someone who is socially awkward wants to change that the way to do it is to go out. Go out every single night and watch, become comfortable, slowly meet people, make friends with people who are socialized. There is no quick fix. You basically have to do the stuff they missed out on doing as a teen now.

How does PUA address that? Creating an army of socially awkward guys using the same finite list of openers quickly saturates the market.

The solution to not being comfortable as yourself is to pretend to be someone else and use a bunch of canned routines?

Become interesting. Why do you assume someone who is boring is limited to being boring. Instead of looking for instant solutions why not just become someone who is interesting?

Yet every attempt I make to have it demonstrated the PUA guru backs out and isn't willing to put money on it.

To the people saying that they have personally benefited from studying PUA: can you post some examples of things you used to study game? Reading some stuff from fastseduction, I am instantly turned off at the types of things they recommend. I have read Double Your Dating, which was interesting and certainly changed my mindset somewhat but ultimately not that influential. FWIW, I liked the video of "Cajun" talking about certain aspects of PUA. Basically, where is this material that is for normal guys looking to take their game to a new level?

This is a ridiculous counter argument, even though YES I have done all the things I listed, no I'm not guaranteed to do that EVERY night on a consistent basis nor do I claim it since the things I listed were for the purposes of listing some of the more interesting things I've had happen over time, not what's happening on a nightly basis. Something like a girl asking me for my autograph because she thinks I'm some kind of celebrity but really isn't sure who I am is obviously not an every night thing so why would I bet on that? If you want to bet that I can go out consistently for a month and produce many more options than the average guy that's an easy bet that we could set up. Anyone that claims to be able to do the things you quoted consistently is either much better than me or lying. There are guys that probably could do that consistently and if you are interested in making that sort of bet with someone who can, that would be too hard to find. Go look for instructors with RSD or Mystery or something. Same way Michael Jordan might be able to score 50 points in a game and "wow" the crowd with fancy moves it's not a guarantee that's going to happen every single game. Not to mention I made this "excuse" that you call it even before you made mention of any silly 'bet'.


Considering the PUA community does not preach working with 100% consistency and is focused on improving results, making a bet on if I can have sex with a girl on any given night is stupid. The community is about making OVERALL changes in a guys success rate with women. If you want to bet your bankroll that I get laid a helluva lot more now than when I first began or that other guys have not improved their results drastically as well then I'd be fine scooping up your networth.


Again, this just shows more misunderstanding of what the community is about. I didn't bother to go back and read the whole thread because it's too long but what you're saying here is common knowledge. Yes, the results ARE going to be situational, thus the reason betting on it completely misses the point since a guy with great game can still have nights where he strikes out. But it's the same in poker, you're looking for improvement in your long term results since that's what matters.

In referring to getting phone #s I assumed we are referring to solid phone #s where the girl picks up the phone because she's interested in continuing talking to you. These types of #s become more and more frequent the better you get, which is why it represents a "success".

Like I said, the better you get the more legitimate numbers you get. For a guy getting a legit phone # and a girl interested in talking further that is success, pretty simple. Even if the %s are low, a guy who has never gotten interest from a girl that gets even just 1 legitimate phone # out of 50 is still improving his quality of life compared with where he was at previously. Also since this # goes up and up overtime the better you get (there's plenty of material written on this subject).

This is precisely what happens the better you get. If you're of the belief that you can't get more and more girls giving you legitimate phone #s the more comfortable/charismatic/attractive you get with them then I'm not sure what to tell you.

This is all purely subjective once again. Hell, I could take the stance that unless you go all the way and **** the girl it's not a victory. I could say that unless someone makes at least $10k a month in poker it's not a victory. You seem to fail to understand that a "success" is a subjective term depending on what someones goals are and the progress they are making. Would you tell someone that's trying to learn English that them learning a few words isn't a "victory" because they still can't speak the language? If so, then sure you can be right if it makes you feel better. Just a completely pessimistic outlook on life however.

I just realized though that you are the same person who was debating with people in my other thread about retiring that someone who is making $100k a year in passive income is nothing and not retired, with people trying to explain to you that it's subjective since for some people having their expenses covered is a success. The tone of your responses make a lot more sense now since it seems to be more personality based.

Whoa, wtf else do you think the community is about? You just stated in a nutshell precisely what the ENTIRE community is about. It's about guys going out there and putting in work through forcing themselves into social interactions they wouldn't have otherwise (due to discomfort) in order to gain confidence/comfort in socializing with women. Like you said, it takes time, but that's not news to anyone familiar with the community. The more you post, the more it seems like you really have got the entire community all misunderstood. It's not about any damn "silver bullet" or quick fix, what company is offering that? I'm sure there's BS you can find out there but any of the companies in the community worth a damn tell you precisely what needs to be done and offers you advice for each step of the way.

What you just said is 100% true, but the confusing part is if you understand that's what needs to be done, how on earth can you hate on guys that are basically working on doing it? Learning the game means pretty much what you just said, learning social skills that you missed out on at some point or another by going out there and getting into social interactions, THAT'S IT. The reason you see guys saying a bunch of canned routines and lines is because with them not knowing how to go in there and try to even attempt to talk to a girl, they need something to practice with to at least get them comfortable with the act of approaching/talking in general.

Once again proving you have a misunderstanding of the community. One liners/routines are just used in the beginning, it's not a long term goal at all. Guys who are good don't use lines or routines because they've gained the comfort/confidence to be able to go out and just be themselves. You have to get that though.

If you had a friend that was ultra shy around women and wanted to improve his results what exactly would you suggest? I'd love to hear your solution since it has to involve at some point talking to a woman, at which point he will complain he doesn't know what to say... and then you will recommend ... what? That's where lines/routines come in for these newbies/socially awkward guys you speak of.

Nope, the solution is to use canned lines for a period of time until you become comfortable with the act of talking to women in general at which point you can carry normal conversations.

This advice is already a part of the community. They offer all sorts of ways for guys to become interesting as well. Once again, you don't understand what the community even entails. I get the impression you just watched Mystery's show or something and that's it. If you want to get a real impression of the community go listen to a product called "Foundations" by Real Social Dynamics then let me know how much of that you think is garbage too.

What exactly do you want to have demonstrated? I already explained in my last post why betting on the outcome of a single particular night is ridiculous because the community doesn't even promise you the ability to get off any girls panties. It's about improving your options with women, simple as that. The fact that I now have had many more lays, many more gf's, many more crazy experiences, etc, is proof in and of itself that the game is real. I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue here. You pretty much said yourself that a guy going out there to work on his social skills is how you improve with women. That's precisely what the game recommends and what I did. I went out every night, talked to a lot of women, tweaked my approach, learned how to escalate, and thus my results increased drastically.

All you need is Foundations from Real Social Dynamics. It's very comprehensive, realistic, and very spot on with what you need to do. I recommend it to any newbie as a way for them to sift through a lot of the BS.