The argument that there are other socially awkward and ineffective ways to approach women is not an argument in favour of PUA. It simply means that there are at least two ****ty ways to do something.

Henry,

Its about results, cause and effect. Approaching and interacting with women in an AFC way produces one result. Doing the same in the PUA way produces another. I know because i have done both. Have you tried both? I kinda doubt that you have simply because you say rather boldly that it is patently ineffective and ****ty. By what standards are you saying that it is ineffective and ****ty? My results are better, my friends results who use it are better. The guys i know that have no knowledge of it, their results are worse, plain and simple.

Also, i have to say after reading some of this thread that you and many other people have a big misconception about PUA. Many people only know about the over the top aspects that they either have read in the Game or seen on the tv show. Personally, a lot of that stuff seems pretty ridiculous and i would never do them, nor would any of my friends. I'm talking about dressing like a clown because of peacock theory, constant negging to put girls down and get the upper hand, as you have said, and those mickey mouse magic tricks or gimmicks like palm reading. i wouldnt be caught dead doing any of that ****.

In retrospect, i guess i only use some of PUA techniques, but i think i use the most important ones. As i said, the biggest difference in what i did before and what i do now is what i said before and that is being different from the thousands of interactions she has had in the past. Talking to her differently from the AFC's who are kissing her ass and trying anything they can to ingratiate themselves with her for a shot to get in her pants. They can sense that neediness instantly.

Its about being unexpected, because they expect any guy who talks to them to be that way and they are sick of it. For instance, when you see her for the first time to pick her up for a date, instead of saying "OMG, you look sooo amazing, you are sooo beautiful" like every other guy has told her in the past, you might say, with a smile of course, "Mmm, you clean up alright. I guess i can be seen out in public with you". Yes, its a neg, but she knows you are joking and also knows that you probably really mean she looks great. But most importantly, its DIFFERENT and therefore infinitely more stimulating to her than all the other same old tired kiss ass, try hard garbage they have been hearing their whole lives. PUA teaches you that, teaches you to suppress those urges to be overly nice, overly interested, and overly complimentary. BTW, all of which i still constantly have, especially if they are hot. But instead of giving in to those urges, like every other guy does because he thinks, incorrectly, he is being nice and she will respond positively, it teaches you there is a better way to play it that produces way better results.

It makes you a different kind of guy in her mind. A guy who has value, who isn't so desperate that he'll say anything that he thinks she wants to hear. You're not needy, you're not calling and texting her constantly, again, like everyone else is doing. Believe me, i have my doubts about all that gimmicky crap that you see on the tv show and read about, thats why i would never do it. But the PUA attitude of not being needy, not being desperate, and not interacting the same way the vast majority of guys do undoubtedly works, and works well. And when a 24 year old ridiculously good looking dancer insists on paying for everything on your first date, she isnt doing it because you have some sort of upper hand on her, or you're dickish antics forced her into feeling like she had to. She is doing it because she wants to, she is enjoying the experience of being with a guy who stimulates her, who has value, and in many cases is something she has never experienced in her entire life.

Simply extrapolating based on experience. I can only judge PUA as it has been presented. So I'm basically working off of the Brad P stuff, the stuff I read on two PUA discussion sites, and what I know of Mystery. I can say with certainty that that stuff will not work for the average guy on attractive girls.

You wrote that you don't use the openers, the gimmicks, the negging, dressing like a clown, or the silly routines. What aspects of PUA do you use? It seems from the rest of what you wrote that basically you took from PUA that you shouldn't act like a puppy.

Ok but why do you assume guys do this? The reason guys kiss ass / act like little puppies toward hot girls is because they know that there is a imbalance in bargaining power -- the guy knows he is not on the same level as the girl he is trying to approach. My position is the way to address this is to change yourself so that there either is no imbalance or the imbalance actually favours the guy. PUA tells guys to act like there is no imbalance which will work on some girls but not the really top girls. The most sought after girls are going to see the guy for someone who is playing aloof rather than actually being aloof.

It isn't different. This type of pick up is actually the most common. I'm not saying that makes it bad -- just that the belief this is not the norm is incorrect.

But PUAs actually are exactly that type of guy. That is the internal inconstancy of PUAs -- they want to play it like they are aloof but they actually study this stuff which makes them the exact opposite of what they are trying to present.

Who does this? I think we are using a very different baseline of what normal male behaviour is. Guys like you descibe exist but they are usually teenagers. The only adult males I know who act this way are so socially awkward that nothing they could do would help.

I don't believe we disagree as much as I did with people who endorsed the Brad P stuff which is complete crap. I actually agree with the general idea you took from PUA -- I think not acting like a ga-ga teenager is certainly good. I just think acting like you don't care is a lot less effective than actually not caring. It is a lot easier and faster to fake it but it won't work on the most sought after girls and it won't work if there is another non-fraud guy around.

Henry,

I think you might agree that social status is something that women are attracted to. You say: Don't be a fraud. Invest the time it takes to improve yourself and gain the social status.

It obviously takes more work to actually have the real thing, than to learn to mimick it.

It seems pretty clear to me that someone could develop a system whereby people without the proper social status to one-night-stand girls above their pay-grade could be taught tricks to make themselves appear to have that status. EXCEPT: To the extent that having real money to throw around, or real high-status friends around, is requisite to the trickery.

I suspect PUA probably does teach some of these tricks, and that they have some basis in reality. The tricks are probably most likely to work on girls for whom wanton displays of cash, or impressive high-status friends, are not critical to obtaining the one-night-stand.

For YOU, I suspect the girls you (used to) seduce were probably hooked strongly by those things I just mentioned. But there are PLENTY of girls for whom those are not critical, and so posing becomes a more realistic option.

Materialism and a 'developed personality' need not go hand in hand.

I do use many of the PUA aspects that you mention, i just dont take them to the absurd. I use openers, mostly opinion openers because they are non-threatening, interesting, and are vastly more effective than how i used to try to approach women. The results and receptivity of the women is almost a complete 180 from what i used to use, which was basically the, "hello, how are you" approach. While i dont dress in a ridiculous outfit or have some colored streak in my hair, i try to dress as nice as possible in clothes better than most guys wear and be neatly groomed. IMO that is a form of peacocking. I use negs fairly often, but they are always very playful and not mean spirited as some of the things i have read.

I do have to disagree with you about how the vast majority of guys act when they are interested in women. Not only from my experience talking to very attractive women, but also seeing it first hand in everyday life now that my awareness of it has risen because of PUA, and finally from my own recollection of how i would act when i was pursuing a very attractive woman. Most guys cannot help conveying their interest and eagerness to appease to a level that is a turn-off to really pretty women, plain and simple. Maybe you didn't do it, but you are not a very attractive female (i think) so you really have no idea what they have gone through from the time they are about 15 years old to their mid-twenties. I assure you that it was a constant barrage of compliments and come-on's from men of all ages that range in the many thousands by the time they are even say 21 years old. So i have to also disagree with you that the PUA approach that i use is the norm because of these very things. It is pretty much completely different than what they have been used to. I do agree with you about the over the top gimmicky approach that is espoused by some PUA gurus. It may work with some good looking girls because of the novelty, but not most and not for long

Yes and no -- short-term it works but not long-term. I see two problems with trying to fake it. The first is that most social scenes are pretty close-knit. If you go around lying or misrepresenting yourself to others you will get caught and it will get around. The end result is that you'll constantly have to switch social scenes and thus always be relatively new and thus at a disadvantage. Eventually you'll run out of social scenes altogether and end up at the vampire bar.

The second is that lots of guys lie to get girls. Unless a girl is nineteen she has been lied to countless times. Some of the stuff PUA advocates is pretty blatant. Ross Jeffries's claim that you can make up ties to Hollywood studios to get girls isn't going to work unless you have the props to pull it off but if you have those props then you don't need the lie.

I think the reason it seems like Henry and others are arguing circles around each other is that the PUA people are pragmatists -- focused on the results that they have obtained and that they believe others have obtained -- while Henry is more concerned with the theoretical integrity of the PUA material.

To be sure the title of the thread, which emphasizes 'validity', encourages the theoretical discussion.

You can argue with (perceived) results, but you can't win an argument against them unless you have some other, more theoretically plausible mechanism, for explaining those results. I think Henry is a bit too dismissive of what many many people claim to be a successful system.

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I think the main benefit of the PUA material is that it gives people the confidence to go out and try something, and very often he who dares, wins.

Henry is concerned that his life's work of being accepted into the social circles of rich snobs will all be for naught because somebody with $30 to buy an E-Book will be accessible to the same pool of women as him.

And you guys are concerned that maybe buying a $30 book isn't going to be an answer to being a social reject.

Not really. I happen to think there is a lot of pragmatic value in being someone of high integrity but that is a different debate. The reason we keep going in circles is because we keep changing the definition of PUA. At this point we have two camps -- the people who believe the gimmicks, canned openers, peacocking, negging, etc works. To that camp I maintain the stuff does not work. People can say what they want -- you will not pick up attractive women using the horse opener. This aspect of PUA (the largest aspect) does not work.

The second group is the PUA taught me to not act like a gaga teenager group. Great. I don't deny that is an improvement and will lead to better results. I started off claiming that PUA material breaks down into three catagories including stuff that works but is obvious -- this goes into that category. There seems to be some disagreement over the extent to which 20-something guys need to be told this but that isn't much of an issue and could really be different depending on environments.

Where we start to have a disagreement again is to the extent that this will improve the results. My position is that if you needed to be told to act this way then there is something wrong with you -- in so much that you feel inferior to the class of girl that you behave that way towards. I believe that pretending that this is not the case will lead to improved results in some cases but not all cases and that it likely is limited to short term results. It is less effective than addressing the actual issue that makes the guy act like a gaga teenager so that he no longer has the need to pretend. This is not an integrity argument -- it is pure pragmatism.

Henry, you say PUA does not work.
Some guys however, want to get better at picking up/talking to/whatever women.
What I gather from the thread is that you want to raise your actual value as a male instead of "faking" it with PUA. How would you go about this, without being vague?

I'm interested in your alternative to PUA for attaining the same goal.

Yes but stuff like the horse opener / Brad Pitt opener or pretending to lose a phone connection at just the most opportune moment isn't an improvement. I have nothing against guys improving how they talk to women but if they consider that crap and improvement I'd hate to see what their original material was.

The answer to this question depends on the environment and the type of girl you want to pick up. If you are trying to pick up girls at upscale clubs you need to develop very different characteristics than if you are trying to pick up a grad student or a tree-hugging hippie. Basically it is a matter of identifying the qualities that are important to the group you spend the most time in and then excelling at those.

If you can master the qualities important to many sub-groups that is even better since you can move between groups and this level of adaptivity is itself an important quality to many groups.

Henry,

You make some valid points, but i have to tell you unequivocally that they do work because i have used them. I just don't make myself a clown by overdoing it. Canned openers work. Asking for an opinion on an interesting subject is many many times more effective at disarming attractive women that what they hear 99.99% of the time, which usually includes such lame openers like "you're so hot", "can i buy you a drink", or even "hello". If the definition of "working" means it gets makes them more receptive to talk to you, it works.

Peacocking works. I would agree with you that wearing a giant silly hat or dying your hair or whatever over the top gimmick some PUA guys endorse would not work. But dressing better than the vast majority of guys in nice clothes, being well groomed, and most importantly, working out to improve your body, does work. That is squarely within the general idea behind peacock theory. Its evolutionary, women are attracted to higher value and the masculine trait of being more athletic than the other guy makes them more attracted to you. This is sort of self evident, but many PUA guys just say to do those things, not to dress like Mystery and his cronies do.

Negging works, if done correctly. It should be done to make her wonder if you are really interested, not to make her feel self-conscious or be put down. Its a little hard to articulate but i can only tell you that the reactions that you get from doing it are unmistakable.

Routines, i never do. I dont think they are necessary tbh. If you have the right general attitude, your conversational skills should be good enough and your life interesting enough that you dont have to make up phony stories to fill the time.

I honestly think that you do make some good points but you loose some credibility when you say you have never tried any of this stuff with women. My friends and i all have discussions basically weekly about times when it does work and how poorly we would do before we didn't use this stuff. I suggest that you give it a try in the field to form an honest opinion about it.

Asking a girl her opinion on something isn't the type of opener I'm talking about. I'm referring to stuff like the horse opener / brad pitt opener / etc. Asking a girl her opinion on something is just normal conversation. If you go look at the openers on PUA sites they are elaborate gimmicks that will make the guy look like a freak and which are 100% contingent on the girl responding in a specific way. If she doesn't the guy is screwed since he won't be able to think on his feet.

Besides the horse opener and Brad Pitt opener discussed earlier here are some other examples

I never disagreed with this. I'm a strong believer in dressing well, good haircuts, proper skin care, and working out. I can see why you'd classify this as peacocking but then anything used to draw attention to you would be peacocking. My issue is with dressing like a clown.

I don't disagree that having her unsure how interested you are is useful. My problem with negging is that it comes off as contrived -- because it is. Someone who is successful with women doesn't need to do this. I think if someone could neg without making it obvious that would be a pretty useful skill -- not as useful as actually not giving a **** -- but all the examples of negs I've seen make the guy look awkward and weird. When it comes down to it the guy is fighting an urge to act a certain way and that is really hard to pull off -- I say change the equation so you don't have those urges in the first place.

I don't need to invest in BIM to know it is a scam. About 75% of my friends are attractive females and I basically live in a bar / club setting so I have a good grasp of what works and what doesn't. The stuff you have employed isn't the PUA material I have an issue with. When we break down what you endorse it basically comes down to -- don't be a gaga teenager, look good, have something interesting to say to break the ice. How can anyone say anything bad about that? That is very different than the crap Brad P / Mystery / et al.. preaches.

I think we are on the same side as far as those aspects are concerned. I have often wondered how that over the top, cartoonish version of PUA developed. I think it comes from the nerd sub-culture that tries to out think everyone and rationalizes an extreme cause of action, like over kill to insure results. I would venture to say that it may work every once in a while with an attractive woman just out of curiosity, but there would be a lot of crashing a burning in between.

My contention is that before i read the game and started to explore PUA, I, and many men like myself, had no guidelines to go by about what produced the desired results with women. I'm a nice person, i've always been athletic, been told i was cute, been successful in business, etc. but yet, my results with women outside of being introduced by mutual acquaintances was really pathetic, mostly because i was clueless as what to do. PUA clued me into the underlying psychology of good looking females and why what i was doing wasn't working.

So, again, I agree with you on those other things but i firmly believe that studying the general concepts on psychology, conversational skills, and basic techniques will undoubtedly improve the results of any guy who uses them, even yourself.

lol sublime slammed henry pretty good. henry u suck!!!

Lol this thread is pretty hilarious through page 8 at least.

PUA helps more than it hurts, especially if you have never bagged anyone hot.

I think all of the major points I would try to make have already been really well explained by alamo. I would listen to what he has to say and what madnak has to say also.

My background in this pua business is I've read a ton of material, never really had the desire to practice or move forward with it though as I've never had problems getting laid. I have some natural game and probably have above average social skills.

So, while I never really used any routines or lines (I have approach anxiety just like everyone else, my best setting is among mutual friends where I don't have to cold open anyone), I would say learning PUA "theory" just helped me understand the dynamics between females and males a bit better.

I did use shock and awe successfully once.

Ummm, you have AA yet you used Shock and Awe... and did it succesfully? That's like someone rolling out of bed one day and saying, "I think I'll try some basketball today" and then dunking on Shaq.

Also Henry's views are obviously irrelevant due to his total lack of ever having ACTUALLY done any of this. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) It's not something that anyone who hasn't taken the LONG road from chode to non-chode could even begin to comprehend.

well, i was pretty drunk (obv not supposed to be if sarging right?), and i was feeling it, and it worked really well. i never worked up the courage again. honestly i would be embarrassed now if i saw myself doing it im sure, but it def worked and i kiss closed an 8 in 30 secs. no joke i was shocked myself.

edit: im not saying im a giant pussy or anything but i def have aa just like the next guy.

based on strauss' book? did you watch the blueprint? i don't think he comes off creepy at all.

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread, just the last one and i think henry17 you have the wrong impression on the whole PUA thing.

I have some PUA friends and they told me that what you see in The Game is pickup 1.0. What a lot of these different schools now are trying to teach people is how to become a natural by having a more well rounded life. The type of life that is attractive to women whether it is a random hookup/**** buddy/girlfriend. They call that pickup 2.0

These guys wouldnt be caught dead wearing gay peacocking gear or using the whole "who lies more?" crap

It works. I barely did it for 2 weeks and it helped me massively. It was fun as hell too.

Pick up is like poker. A lot of people know about it or play it and only a relative few really knows what they're doing. If you study the game, you gain an edge and can use it to your benefit.

IMHO the most important part of pick up isn't the girls themselves, it's really about understanding what your strong points/weak points and how to improve it.