James Irvin is ranked 23 on Fight Matrix, and is 17th overall against guys who fought last in the UFC (16th with guys currently under UFC contract).

There is no argument you can make that Irvin was a borderline top 10 fighter in the division coming into the fight. He was put into the cage to showcase Anderson, and that's what happened.

OMG, I just noticed JBS used MMARanks.com to try and prove a point.

I've heard you guys laugh at that site before and I never checked it out till now... all I can say is LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We somewhat agree on your 1st paragraph about taking the fight on short notice and the visible KO. I don't agree that he was viewed a stepping stone or else it would devalue Anderson IMO. Again, IMO he's a top 10 or 11 fighter. You disagree...fine, no harm no foul....we move on. I watched Jardine/Liddell...he was somewhat more aggressive and Chuck kept waiting for his one shot. IMO, a sound defeat is one where the loser is dominated thru the entire fight, which he wasn't. It was a close split decision win 29-28 on all cards...check the UFC website if you don't believe me.


Bonnar beat Irvin in Jan. 2006...could he beat him now...maybe. Could Irvin beat me now...maybe. You can't say with 100% conviction the same result will happen 3 yrs. later...both fighters have changed and grown.

Bonnar was eligible to fight in May 2007...he didn't fight until October. Check his UFC profile to verify if you don't believe me, the info's all there!

Your 3rd statement is completely unreal IMO. You bill Anderson as the best pound for pound fighter in the world, but if he loses...it wasn't meant to be!?

He didn't face someone above Irvin since they'd lose the chance to make money off it! But it doesn't clearly make Irvin less than 10 or 11. One of the basic principles of matchmaking is to insure the fights are competitive in terms of records, rankings, and ability to draw ratings and revenue. You can't convince me otherwise...I work in the media and I know it all works!

BTW...Reese might not even be Top 25...Vera's as a 205 is no different than him being a HW, unimpressive and overhyped. The only thing he did well last night was telling the audience to support Rampage thru his troubles.

Kirk...thanks for being mature and talking to me like a man...instead of certain others before you. Irvin got dismantled by a guy that could fight in either WW, MW, or LHW. I'm not saying they're in the same class either. I've already stated how I view the matchup in terms of value and credibility.

See my previous post that does have a site that shows Irvin in the Top 10, may not be super credible...but it backs my original point of this discussion be subjective! Anderson will fight 205 again vs. a Liddell, Jackson, or Griffin...only a big money fight. Any other matchups aren't marketable and won't sell live or on PPV.

To everyone else...it's an opinion...I'm not trying to slam it down your throat as I feel is being done to me...it's a freaking opinion...rankings are subjective and this discussion is as well....I'm moving on.

so your argument for irvin being a top ten lhw is he fought anderson silva and dana white would never put silva up against someone that wasn't a top ten lhw

gg

So just because you devalue the opinions of a couple of sites...makes it the absolute bottom line? Your ego can't just allow you to agree to disagree? Guess you'll go to bed feeling better that your opinion "wins" in a discussion on an issue that's clearly based on a subjective opinion. In that logic, if I say Scarlett Johannson isn't the hottest woman alive because one magazine says she's only number 5...then you must agree that my view is the absolute bottom line, foolish, and not subject to discussion! Only fair....

I'll lay a fair wager down here...if you can get 2 of the following to back up your views on this issue...I'll buy you a $200 dinner (I ain't Trump) plus let you post a picture of me here on 2p2 holding a sign that says anything 100% negative about me of your choosing next time I come to Vegas during the next 12 months!

Here's the panel....Iole, Meltzer, or Joe Silva from the UFC. Verifiable proof means a 100% real e-mail from any of them or a published article that describes the actual reasoning of the matchup in their opinion which clearly backs up your opinion on all aspects.

But I'll give you a little free info...Iole's already on the record stating that Irvin is "a solid middle of the road LHW"...which puts him IMO between 10-11, maybe 12.

Your call now...

some things are more subjective than others

I don't think JBS understands the situation at all. Most of the big time fights are booked months in advance to give each fighter time to adequately prepare for the opponent. This past UFC Fight Night was booked about a month in advance, virtually at the last second to rival Affliction's PPV. There simply wouldn't be enough time to schedule two big name fighters against each other. Also, have you seen most of the Fight Night cards? When is the last time a title holder even defended his belt on a Fight Night? These aren't big time cards, if Anderson Silva were to fight a top 10 LHW, I can guarantee you that fight will be on a PPV, not some free Spike show. They just wanted to put Silva in there vs. a guy who would stand with him, and they wanted a highlight reel knockout, which is what they got.

You also have to realize Anderson Silva isn't like 90% of fighters who feel slighted if each successive opponent isn't better than the next if they keep winning. Anderson just wants to fight every 2-3 months, he doesn't care who the opponent is. He's also said he doesn't have LHW aspirations anyway, so to him it was the perfect opportunity to test the waters at LHW.

plus irvin has really big muscles

And lots of pirate tattoos! Everyone likes pirates!

I said he's a Top 10-11 before he fought Silva...go do some research on what's been written since last night to see how others in the know (much more than you and everyone else here) viewed the fight!

I already proved my points vs. yours in the last outrageous and factually incorrect post you made. I know this was put together barely 30 days beforehand. I know how long in advance main events are booked for training, marketing, etc. They don't put title matches on free TV since they're used to draw money in the UFC via PPV.

You can't put Silva on a PPV to debut in 205 vs. a guy below Top 10ish since it devalues his image as the best. And it won't sell. You're partly right in wishing he could give them a highlight reel KO last night...on free TV to get ratings 1st, and for his fighter image 2nd!

Your last paragraph makes no sense....if he's put in the cage every 2-3 months to fight anyone just for the sake of fighting...how does that maintain his title of being the best in the world...just because he fights 50% tomato cans and 50% contenders? C'mon man...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=235526

There is nothing wrong with you having the opinion that Irvin is a top-ten LHW. What is wrong is that you believe that the UFC scheduled The Spider's fight first fight in the UFC at 205 with Irvin BECAUSE Irvin is a top-ten fighter. That is absolutely wrong. Dana White would disagree with you. Joe Silva would disagree with you.

As far as the Liddell/Jardine decision... a 29/28 split decision does not mean it was a close fight. Liddell barely won a round and was beaten around the cage in the other 2. It was not even close. It was a travesty that an idiot judge scored it in favor of Liddell (and it wasn't even Cecil Peoples!!! He actually got it right and scored for Jardine!).

You are essentially arguing against many mma fans who disagree with you. Are we all wrong???

Anyone watching DREAM 5 tonight? It's on HDNET in a little less than 2 hours.

I believe the burden of proof is on you.


I think you are underestimating the step up in weight as being the main point which helps his image. The fact that a 185lber stepped up and whipped a 205er is pretty amazing to the casual mma fan. They are in even more awe of him now regardless of his opponent's status (who they may only know from seeing him KO Alexander recently). Even if those in the know realize that Silva has always been a big 185er and walks around at 215+, the casual fan has a different outlook.

It's worked for Fedor. And he fights even less.

And your point is what? Like I said...50/50 and if any mod in any forum had believed I was trolling in regards to the thread they brought up, I would have been warned, gotten points, or permabanned. Obviously, it was a witch hunt by a few people that disagreed with me and have obvious differing views than the mods in terms of the rules and how one can break them.

P...

I didn't say that his 1st fight in 205 was because Irvin is a top 10 LHW. If that's what it came off as to you...then I can't change your interpretation of what I wrote. The rest of that paragraph...is all your opinion based on the first part....let's move on.

Split decision of 29-28 on all 3 cards doesn't equal soundly beaten. Soundly beaten equals 30-27 and a unanimous decision.

This forum serves a purpose as a place to discuss a variety of subjects. To say that "many mma fans who disagree with you" is an effective sample size of 6-8 people is a fair representation....no? I don't mind others having an opinion...but you think 50,000 MMA fans would side with you? They might, but I can claim the same thing! You're not wrong...honestly, we just disagree on the main point of the logic as to why the 2 guys fought. It's that simple...I'd rather go forward and talk about the next UFC card. You?

It's pretty remarkable how long you guys have humored someone whose entire argument is based upon a belief that because the match was booked, Irvin must be a top 10 fighter. (Or top 11.)

In any case, Dream is going to be awesome. Hopefully Aoki wins it all.

i read on fightmetric that peoples has never been the dissenting judge in a split decision. it blew my mind.

sorry for derailing the jbs thread. i promise my next post will be on topic.

DREAM is going to save my interest in MMA, they've put on fantastic shows. For me it's been DREAM > UFC > Affliction/EliteXC/etc in 2008 so far. The whole atmosphere with the Japanese crowd, the fights, the great intros and Bas Ruten really seal the deal for me.

Just providing context. People can draw their own conclusions from the data.

JBS,

MMARanks is an atrocious ranking site and has zero credibility in the MMA community at large (and no, not just the 10 or so regulars that post here). They have GSP at something like 7 or 8 at WW FFS.

And LOL @ your wager, especially using Kevin Iole as one of the qualifiers.

Like I said in that post...some had some fighters ranked in one place, the same guys ranked worse...all to back my point of it being a subjective discussion based on the opinion you choose.

Iole...not being "qualified"? I'll take these credentials:

Award-winning veteran sports writer Kevin Iole is the national boxing and mixed martial arts reporter for Yahoo! Sports. Kevin has previously covered boxing for the Las Vegas Review-Journal and other publications, writing on some of the biggest names and bouts in the sport.

and the fact he makes some good $$$$ as being qualified over the thoughts of an online armchair QB that's watched a few dozen fight tapes anytime!

Good night!

Irvin's face tattoo on the right side of his belly is creepy as hell

DREAM 5 just started! Can't wait to see some great fights.

silva should, but will not continue to fight at 205..i believe he was quoted as saying "the 205 pound belt is lyotos"...they are good friends and its pretty reasonable to think lyoto will have the title pretty soon..my guess is silva will prob end up fighting filho towards the end of the year at 185