this statement ridiculous. take the parent who quietly asks their child to stop misbehaving as the child screams at the top of his/her lungs for w/e reason; i think that this parent has done their child a great disservice by not forcing them to shut the hell up, but to call them scum-- that's way out of line. what pray tell does your creative mind suggest doing to a child who doesn't respond to nonphysical forms of punishment-- and yes, kids like that do exist.

saying that spanking your kids is lazy is also ridiculous. the only thing "lazy" regarding punishing children is making no attempt to punish them at all and/or using forms of punishment that have no impact on their behavior, thereby effectively allowing the child to do what he/she wants.

Make sure you are clear on the semantics. To me there is a huge difference between getting "spanked" and getting "hit". Me and my brother where both spanked. I swear the 20 min discussion before the spanking sucked almost as much. I absolutely plan on doing this with my kids when they earn it. And I am pretty sure that I earned every spanking I got. For stuff like lying, etc. Not for stupid crap like oh you spilled you glass of milk, time for a spanking. I would guess it happened less than 10 times a year and probably closer to 4 or 5.

I also know that within a week of having the primary form of punishment switch from spankings to being grounded would have traded 50 spankings for one 2 week grounding........

Well then, that settles it.

If you've got a little time, I'd love it if you'd definitively settle abortion, gun control and marijuana use....also in one sentence, of course.

you're not teaching them why something is wrong, you are just treating them like an animal to associate an action with pain.

just because you turned out fine doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better for your dad to use his brain instead of his fists to teach you why you shouldn't give him the finger(an action you didnt even understand). unless hitting a child is done excessively, the negative consequences are probably minimal, it still doesnt mean the best path to hit your kids.

but like i said before, people have a strong bond with their parents so you'll constantly hear "my dad did it so i am going to do it".

How many people here had parents who didn't hit them and plan to hit their kids?

No. What's ridiculous is the unspoken basis of your disagreement: namely, the inane premise that the human race is not primarily composed of scum.

im with subfallen on this. human race = highly over rated.

false. i think you have some misconceptions about spanking. it's not as though the child does something wrong and then is dragged into a closet and beaten w/o an explanation as to why-- that is abuse.

(see pancho villa's post)
also, i think spanking can be a calm measured response. i feel like everyone here who is anti spanking has this vision in their mind of an enraged parent beating their child like a slave and providing no explanation. again, that is not spanking, it's abuse.


i also happen to think that people suck, but relevance?

also, way to cut out the rest of the post which explains why i think it's ridiculous. i gave the basis for my disagreement.

this is a gross oversimplification of how spanking is used as disciplinary method.

OK, so if there are other methods to teach me not to do something... what are they? Please explain to me what should happen to a kid that misbehaves. You want to put them in timeout? You want to take away their video games? Make them sit and do nothing? That's constructive!

That retains no threat. I'm not asking you to give a concussion, but seriously, what threat is there for next time I get out of line. I was being annoying, my father reached in the backseat of my car and smacked me (or tried!). I don't comprehend what is supposed to happen in place of that... I guess I had nothing to take away? You want to put me in timeout? What if I decide to sit in timeout and keep whining, send me to boarding school?

this seems like a terrible example of violence against children being used effectively. for one thing, a few swings to take you down and a few kicks to get you back up isn't even spanking its just abuse.
more importantly you didn't do anything wrong. you had no idea what you did was wrong, and after being beaten you still had no idea why. this is exactly what kkf was talking about when he said its just treating you like a dog and getting you to associate a certain action with pain. sure you won't give your dad the finger again but you'll probably be scared to give him a thumbs up or a peace sign too. seems like he could have just said "aejones, that gesture is offensive, you shouldn't do that" and you probably wouldn't have done it again.

my parents never took toys away. i think thats also a sign of not being able to control your kids. its the same risk/reward principle. i cant definitively say how my parents did it, but it was similar to that teacher in school that nobody effed with. whenever you did anything wrong or got out of line they quickly and firmly addressed it. when my parents would raise their voice it would freeze me. that was all they had to do.

I don't believe spanking is inherently evil. I was spanked exactly twice as a child(both before I was six): once when I scared my mom half to death by running back and forth and jumping over my new baby brother as if he was a hurdle. She told me to stop, I continued, she told me to stop again because I was scaring her, she left the room and I did it again. I was spanked.

The other time was when my dad and I were doing the weekend shopping and I kept running away from him and hiding. After I did this probably at least 4 times, he gave me maybe 3 swats in the car.

Both times after I was spanked, my parents told me that they loved me more than anything and that they would never hurt me, except if I refused to stop doing something that could cause me or someone else to get hurt. Mom actually got a little teary. They both made it abundantly clear that they really disliked spanking me and would prefer to never do it again.

It worked beautifully, at least as much because of the talk as the spanking.

My biggest problem with spanking is that spanking advocates are always talking about "controlled spanking". I know that such a thing exists, because I was the recipient of it, but I don't think that being calm and in control when spanking is the norm.

I grew up in Texas where there were PLENTY of children around me that were spanked/belted/etc. In fact, in my junior high, boys could get a paddling from the vice principal instead of detention. It was very much a spanking culture. It's very rare that I can remember a parent calmly saying "go get the belt" or the equivalent. Most parents were angry and at least a little out of control when they would spank my friends. This makes perfect sense, because, really, when do parents decide to spank kids? When they are frustrated because the little rascal is driving them nuts.

A decision never to spank>>>>>>Hitting your kid when you are not in complete control of yourself, imo. And I'd be willing to bet that the correlation between parents that spank and parents that haven't been exposed to the kind of coping skills that help them decide if they are in the right frame of mind to be spanking their child is a pretty high one.

We were not undisciplined as children. Both of our parents were big advocates of consequences. Swearing would get your mouth washed out with soap. Calling each other names meant that we had to pay each other 10 compliments.

Me: You're a creep!
Mom: Amanda, 10 nice things about your brother. Right now.
My Brother: [smirk]

This was surprisingly effective. From day one, our parents expected us to treat each other and everyone else like nice human beings, and for the most part, it worked pretty well. They were also as careful as they could be about outside influences (only public tv until we were 12, no going over to people's houses if they hadn't met the parents, they supervised our reading material and were very selective about what movies we were allowed to watch).

We also got some good old fashioned yelling when it was warranted. Followed by the talking about what we did wrong to get yelled at. The talking was worse than the yelling. Guilt-tripping is underrated.

One thing that legitimately horrified me in this thread was that some parents are giving their kids the silent treatment...and for days at a time apparently. That sends exactly the kind of message I would NEVER want to give my kids (presumed kids, I don't have any atm): "If you don't act right I will abandon you/stop loving you." It actually makes me a little ill.

Sounds like you were a good kid.

Bringing up children is most probably the hardest thing any of us will ever do. Spanking is an emotive topic so I am not suprised that so far in this thread people have only stated their opinions and experiences.

However, I think it is every parent's responsibility to study this topic in depth. I have done this to some extent and believe that in some specific cases in a child's development spanking can be justified, within the greater framework of good parenting.

A full explanation is not possible here, but I would recommend people reading Touchpoints 1-2-3 and other child care books for more information.

In reply to The Lebowski's question, I wasn't but I would.

The number of illogical conclusions and misinterpreted statements in this thread is getting annoying.

Yes, of course calling someone "scum" merely because they don't think like you is ridiculous.

So is assuming that a parent who quietly asks their child to stop is doing them a disservice. Why? Why is "forcing" your child to shut up a requirement? Spanking doesn't force anything either. How do you know the parent hasn't worked out a history with the child where quietly asking them to stop doesn't work?

Criminy people, put some brain power into your thought process if we're going to discuss important topics. Low S/N ratios in thread that are of interest to you is really annoying.

You are one of those "unimaginative" people an earlier poster spoke of.

What happens when you hit a child and they keep whining?

"That's constructive"... hmm, so the point of punishment is to be constructive? How is hitting constructive? The point is not to be constructive, the point is to alter behavior. If you consider that "constructive", then many strategies are constructive.

Personally, I've found this technique to work very well.
http://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Ef.../dp/0963386190

My son HATES when I start to count. He'll do almost anything if I'll stop. Why? I don't know.

When I first became a father I was scared that I would have no control. Why should my son ever do what I say? Why would he sit in timeout? What is actually keeping him there?

But I underestimated how much children in a healthy environment want to love and be loved, want to please, want to get positive feedback, want to be accepted, included, and not bored. These are very powerful concepts.

Am I just lucky to have a relatively well behaved child? Maybe. But when I think about it, I find myself reminding him of the same things over and over and over. Being consistent, being firm, being loving, fighting the right battles, letting him have his way and make decisions sometimes. It takes extreme patience, and sometimes they are illogical, unreasonably emotional, and they themselves don't even understand why they act the way they do sometimes.

I believe some parents who fail, or who don't do optimally, might not have enough patience, or imagination, or empathy, or discipline themselves.

Hitting can work, but it's not optimal. It's like a poker decision that makes money, but is not optimal. It's a better short term tactic when you can't really figure out a complete long term strategy without doing it.

I don't really think that's specific to spanking. Even parents who don't spank - how much do you think is being done while calm and in control? That's really the issue. It takes seemingly superhuman amounts of patience sometimes.

Counting will not work forever. If it does, your child is too quick to defer to authority. As other posters have said, spanking is not needed for every child. They will respond to other strategies and punishment/incentive structures. What will you do with an out of control child who is self destructive? Do you always blame it on the parents? My parents have often said "I hope your kids are exactly like you." We love each other, but I was destructive at times to myself and others. (I have put 2 of 3 siblings into the hospital while growing up. I was not spanked for these occassions, because it was not necessary. I was sorry enough, and tried to make amends. But other times, I felt spanking was a necessary punishment.)

No (good) parent wants to spank their child. But to dismiss it from the "toolbox" is a decision that not every parent makes. I think it is silly to dismiss it, but I respect parents who start from a "no spanking" perspective if that means they are creatively engaging their children. I just find that too many "never been spanked" kids that I have come into contact with lack discipline. It's a multivariate causation IMO, but no spanking may be indicative of overall weakness in the "helicoptering" parents.

No. For one thing, it works mostly for those types of things that young kids do and don't stop doing. For example, whining, not coming when called, and endless "piddly" things that require you to get their attention and stop.

When they get older, it tends to be things more like going out on their bike before asking you, or burning down the shed. Obviously counting is irrelevant here :-)

I think the punishment, as I said before, should still be more correlated to what they might face in the real world. There is practically nothing that you're actually going to do wrong that you're going to get punched for (it has happened, but many people go their entire lives without ever getting punched or even slapped.) But they are fined, jailed (lose freedom, priveleges), lose friends, have a lot of unpleasant cleanup or work to do, etc. Those all seem like fine punishments to me.

And we have not even touched upon positive reinforcement as an implied deterrant either. (If kids are thinking of ways to get rewarded, then by default they are not doing anything you disapprove of.) If I do something great at my job, I get more money/recognition/attention/opportunity. If I do something bad, I lose my job or something similar. But I have never been spanked or slapped.

Yeah, there could be some correlation, but by no means have I seen any evidence that leads me to the conclusion that spanking is optimal.

there is nothing illogical about my conclusion. my point isn't that spanking should be the default form of punishment, or that it shouldn't be for that matter. i'm saying that making absolute statements like "spanking is never an effective form of discipline" or "spanking is the only effective method" are off the mark.

i pulled that example out of the air and i'm not claiming to know the specifics of the dynamic b/t a particular parent and the child; however, if a parent is unwilling to find an effective form of discipline for their child then i think they are doing their child a disservice. how is having the expectation that a parent will make their child behave ridiculous? that is one of the responsibilities of being a parent; no, you don't have to force children to behave if they are being disruptive, but i think you should. i'm not saying this necessarily has to be done via spanking, but if other methods don't work then why not give the kid a whack on the butt and see if it helps?

edit: my example was supposed to implicitly convey the fact that the parent asking/telling the child to be quiet was not working. i probably should have stated it more clearly. i did not mean that once the child started screaming any reaction other than hitting the child would be ridiculous.

I agree entirely.

However, I think if you are going to punish your child physically, it's several orders of magnitude more important that you have yourself under control while doing so than for other types of discipline.

Yea, that's what I Was thinking. I wasn't really a good kid- I mean I was inherently a good kid, and I never did anything seriously bad, but I couldn't shut my mouth. In class, I couldn't help but laugh and blurt out the answer when kids didn't know it. I liked to make fun of people, I always talked back... just your standard smart mouth, I guess.

Clearly my mom asked me afterwards what i did and explained to me that it was not to be done obviously.

That was only after they put me on a bear trap and locked me in the cellar for 10 days with only bread crumbs to eat and spoiled milk to drink.

this double quoting thing is tilting me