are there many people in the military who get their rocks off on the whole war thing so much that you think they shouldnt be there? like the kind that joined just so they could kill as many enemies as possible instead of doing it for a sense of serving the country?

if yes, do you think that is a good thing?

That has come up earlier in the thread, yes.

I wouldn't say it's any other job, obviously, but... it's complicated, like I said earlier.

I don't know much about the EOD. The only requirement I know of is having a certain ASVAB score, over 100 would probably do. Besides that, I'm pretty sure there's no strict requirements (could be wrong) and it's primarily a matter of limited slots and being able to find one.

Far as the first part of the question, the answer is yes. There's a LOT of frustration at having to drive up and down streets rigged to blow right from under you. We got pretty good at spotting the little lines and other tell-tale signs of IED placement, but they get better too so it's always a cat-and-mouse game, and being put in the position of the mouse is extremely aggravating. Technically speaking Marines are considered shock troops, designed and trained to lead an attack, break the enemy's defenses, then get out of there and let the Army take over the occupational part. This has been the first real time that the Marines have been put in this position and while we still handle it infinitely better than... y'know, it's not really what the Marines are about. So yes, it's extremely frustrating.

Quite frankly, this is so far above my paygrade that there is not much interesting inside information I could share on this. My best guess is that it has a lot to do with the fact that as you get higher and higher up politics begin to play bigger and bigger role, and looking better than the other guy, and if you can succeed where he fails you get promoted where he doesn't. Just my guess though.

riverboatking nailed it on the head much earlier in the thread when he said it's naive to think that the majority of people join out of a sense of patriotism. That is absolutely correct. Your question implies that most people join to serve the country and some join for other, darker reasons. I hate to tell you this, but you have it backwards. People join for a lot of different, personal reasons - some get into a rut and they just want to get out of it, some need to test themselves, some think they want to make a career out of it then retire on a nice gov't pension, a lot are Hispanic and join to get on a fast-track to get their citizenship, etc.

The types of people that "get off on the whole war thing" are definitely the guys you want by your side. They will keep going when the going gets tough, they are not afraid, they are not lazy and so they stay alert and vigilant even after being out in the field for weeks on end, and long after everyone else has already mentally said "screw this" and is just going through the motions. So yeah, they are the guys you want.

Now, far as what you're probably thinking, which is them just shooting in spots where it's not needed to get their rocks off, that is a matter of discipline, following orders, and understanding ROI's - Rules of Engagement. That is why you don't just sign on the dotted line, get a gun, and get tossed into a combat zone. By the time you go through boot camp and SOI, than join the fleet and quickly realize that no matter how tough you thought you were you aren't that tough compared to the guys you're now surrounded by... So they still follow orders and observe ROI's because if they screw up, someone will have their ass. So you basically act like a professional to stay out of trouble and out of the doghouse. Yet another advantage to having and enforcing extremely strict discipline as part of overall mentality.

Edit to add: And another reason - as you gain in rank, there's more and more pressure to set an example to your younger Marines and fulfill the expectations that come with having said rank in the first place. There's a sense of pride in your professionalism and expertise, and knowing how to do your job well. Going to war isn't about shooting a gun. It's about staying awake on post even though you're going on no sleep for the past week; it's about doing your job without complaining where your junior Marines can hear you; it's about staying alert on a six hour patrol even though you've walked it fifty times already, your back is cramping, you're tired, hungry, and sick of being there, and you know that nothing will probably happen anyway. That is what war is. The type of guy you described, ironically, is usually the type of guy that handles it best in the end.

Do you have any advice for new LTs? Are there any examples of leadership, good or bad, that you care to share (ways that your platoon commander earned or lost respect with you or the platoon)?

Is it obvious which guys are the crazy ones that you want, the crazy ones you don't want (I assume these people kinda get culled really quickly), and then the apathetic ones?

Are motivational issues really common? Like.. I guess another way of phrasing the question. Is there a significant impact on your and others safety/lives from the motivational levels of other Marines? Does this relate to the above question?

great thread OP, good read. You write/tell stories well.

+1, thanks for all of these answers.

Know someone about to become one? Here's what I would tell them:

Sometimes in order to lead you have to follow. Any new LT's focus should be to basically follow while appearing to lead. There's going to be plenty of times to give orders, but there's also going to be times to hang back and let a squad leader show some initiative. Yes, it's tricky, but like I said earlier, it's probably one of the most difficult positions one can possibly be in, so it isn't going to be easy no matter what you do. I don't know if they still teach that "bearing is 9/10s of command" but I hope not, because it's a pretty terrible mindset to have. The new LT isn't the first that your senior Marines have seen, for a lot not even the second, for some not even the third... so your bearing isn't impressing anyone. Especially after the first time you forget your Kevlar after a break on a hump, misplace your magazines, show up without your note-taking gear to a formation.... basically all the little things that happen to everyone new, but lack of experience combined with an assumed air of superiority become an extremely toxic mixture.
Here's a few things that I would do if I were in that position without ever having been in previously (and somehow just magically knowing these things I guess):
1) Prepare to forget everything that they have just taught me, or to be more precise try and put it away into the unconscious (if that makes sense) and focus on learning directly from my unit once I get there. Each is going to have its own SOPs that work well for them. They will also have - these days it's all but assured - a lot of guys with multiple tours under their belts and very intimate working knowledge of exactly what works and what doesn't. It's different than what they teach you in school, there's no reason to not go in with that mindset and try to reinvent the wheel. And it won't work anyway.
2) Spend as much time as possible training with my platoon, like in the back yard, MOUT in the barracks if it seems appropriate, etc. They are not going to like my presence, but **** them, I wouldn't be doing it to please them, I would be doing it to learn as much as possible, get to know them, get them used to me, and get into the groove of things. They are not going to assume that you're doing it because you don't know, they will assume that you are doing it to see how well they know it and develop rapport, which largely is the reason to do it.
3) Be prepared to be unpopular - that if I tell them I'm running with them in the morning and I show up 5 minutes late, they could very well be gone. That's just something that will fix itself with time.
4) Lift weights. This is a big one. Marines are pretty basic creatures, if they see bulging muscles they will almost automatically respect it and tend to give you a greater benefit of doubt. New officers love to run, I guess it's the OCS thing. You won't be running with 60 lbs of gear, you'll be sprinting short bursts, scrambling across rooftops, climbing over walls, berms, and fences... in other words stuff that requires as much power as endurance, so the obsession with running can be dispensed with once you're out of school. It's also good for them to see you in the weight room, builds rapport.

You gain respect over time by being yourself, not pretending to be something you are not, and working hard; and... you can't lose what you don't have yet, so I wouldn't worry about that. You can demand and expect that they respect your rank, which the system largely does for you anyway; and obedience to orders, which again won't be difficult to get. You cannot demand respect to your person until you earn it. That will just take time, but it will happen with the experience of working together.

I don't really have any specific helpful stories that I can think of, but if there's anything you'd like me expand on or clarify, I'd be happy to.

It's impossible to know in advance. The situation is so completely unique that there's no way of telling how someone will respond to the pressures. Also, it's not one-and-done, it's a multi-year process, and one thing I've learned is never underestimate peoples' capacity to grow and respond to the demands placed on them over time. The 'crazy' one can get completely broken mentally by the grind and become borderline worthless, the apathetic one can get into it and become a war hero... then the two can reverse roles two years down the road. It's an ongoing process, there's no way to know.

The motivational level usually is "this really sucks, i hate this ****, i don't want to do this... but i have to, so i will." It doesn't impact much because Marines are professionals who aren't doing it because it's enjoyable but because the lives of other Marines around them depend on them doing their job to the best of their ability and, like I said, screwing up and being responsible for someone else getting hurt is the biggest fear. There's also the pride and competition factor and nothing is more embarrassing than getting chewed out in front of everyone for being a ****bird, so the job gets done no matter what.

Appreciate it. As you can probably tell by now my goal is to paint an honest picture. I'm all for people becoming Marines, I think in the end it's a good experience to have under your belt. However, I want to put some honesty out there about what it's really like. There's a lot of sides to it. Some of my answers may even seem somewhat self-contradictory, but it's hard to answer some of these questions in less than a 10-page paper because so often the answers are situational and would vary completely depending on the multiple factors involved. I do appreciate the feedback though. It doesn't need to be all positive by the way, if there's anything I said anyone disagrees with, feel free to post that too so I can address it.

Thanks to all for all the questions and making this thread very worthwhile.

Refuse to let this thread fall off the first page

on a lighter note...

what noticable effect has being a combat marine had on the opposite sex?

any great stories (obv not looking for sexscapades but rather the funny stuff leading up to them).

Having been in certainly doesn't hurt, not gonna lie, but the combat part actually doesn't help at all. As soon as people hear you went to Iraq they instantly get this look in their eyes like "is this guy normal? is he crazy? ...am i in danger?!?" Once they get to know me they relax, but "I've been to war!" would probably have to rank on the all-time worst list of pick-up lines. Usually I just don't bring it up.

great thread OP, thanks for the insights

Kirk,

Excellent thread. A good friend of mine dropped out of college and enlisted in the Marines. Did a couple of combat stints, then went back to school, went to OCS, became an Officer, and now is about to become a 1st LT. Here are things I've learned from him:

1) It sucks ass to be an enlisted man on a boat, especially when it comes to living quarters.

2) Officers quarters are pretty cool.

3) Any military people not in the USMC are complete pussies, especially if they are in the Navy.

4) Mavericks (am I getting the term right?) are generally liked, but most other officers are complete pussies that everyone hates when they start.

5) Being in active combat/war is far safer/comfortable than being in any sort of security/peacekeeping role.

Thoughts on the above? Thanks for this awesome thread.

Great thread.

Assuming cost was no object, were there an elements of the gear/weapons you would want to replace/leave behind/add assuming you were allowed to, but still had the same set of orders (assume you have a rifle not a SAW)?

Please do.

I'm not sure if this falls under "not dwelling on that", but I'd really like to hear more about what it was like to be the first guy through the door. The thought of being that guy terrifies me; i.e. turning a corner, and being face to face with the enemy. Does this happen, or do I have a completely skewed perspective as to how Marines actually clear a building? Could you take us through what it's like to be in a close quartered situation like that?

I ask, because when this subject was brought up, I immediately thought of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjiCMyqaROw

It just seems like a very tense, immensely difficult job, and I'd like to understand more as to how it gets done.

Also, you previously said that the actual combat was your favorite thing about your deployment, so could we get any more stories about any other firefights you were involved in?

It can't be said enough, but thanks for an amazing thread, and for your service.

At peak physical condition, e.g. before your deployment, how many push-ups could you/other marines do on average?

kirk not sure if you realize how epic your thread is but it actually got el diablo to post!!!
pretty sure this is the first time he's posted in over a year so congrats!
however good luck ever getting him to actually follow thru on making sushi reservations if he promises to do that..........

Really awesome thread K, you do a excellent job of giving insight into the mindset of a marine.

In your opinion, what % of the population could make it through boot camp and become a marine? What % is physical vs mental?

Or three days.

Sweet thread, though. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Plz post more and we'll call it even

It may sound pretty funny but I just don't know that much about weapons, never really cared, so couldn't tell you. Carrying it all really sucks, it's heavy and it hurts your shoulder blades and kills your back, so... all of it? j/k obviously, but it's there for a reason and does the job. The M16A4 is extremely sturdy and can break down doors like a battering ram (with the muzzle, not the butt-stock). The M203 is just awesome as has been mentioned. The SAW is the most miserable weapon on the planet to carry but when someone starts shooting at you and you swing that thing over and unload, you're f'ing God as you let loose a stream of straight death. It's just an incredible feeling. The PEQ-2 makes the weapon feel way heavier because it goes on the muzzle and unbalances it, but being able to go into a completely dark house in the dead of night and be completely invisible while seeing everything makes you feel like a ghost... None of it is fun but it works and after you survive one, two, three deployments you just sort of stop questioning things and accept the fact that you can't argue with results.