I would say that villain holding the only combo of AA is more likely than AJ. As they do not expect to get more than 1 street of value on this board if they cbet this flop since your calling range is pp heavy and AJs/AQ/AK. I would expect Ax to cbet this board a good % of the time at the micro's, since that is what everyone does and they do not have plans for what cards to barrel on the turn. And I agree with the check raise for value with AK, I'd even suggest it with 55/66. The A is a good card for villain to bet with their entire range after hero checks twice, that way you get the extra bet when they will just fold air if you lead turn and if they check twice they have something like 89s for a gutshot where you might allow them to pair up to bluff catch the river when you bet it. And you have gained initiative on the river. This turn spot is similar to flatting AA in the blinds and check raise the same board texture, where you allow villain to make the mistake by allowing them to misread your range, where you have a wider value range than boats.

Now, calling or folding river is very villain dependent. I'd be inclined to fold without reads even though I hate folding, since I don't see too many hands they could bluff with. And not many worse hands they value shove in their mind or bluff with that get to this point, besides random spazzes.

I like the turn c/r, it works well against fish and TAGs a lot. River is a fold.

People call these hands on the co and bu because your perceived range from the blinds is wide. Much wider than vs an utg raise. If villains have a low f3b stat, then range merging aka non-polarizing is standard ip or oop. No one is arguing this. However, positional advantage in the utg/blinds dynamic is ******ed if card advantage is hugely weighted towards our opponent and the skill level is near the same.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.437% 25.29% 07.14% 475548384 134310204.00 { QQ, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 67.563% 60.42% 07.14% 1135941000 134310204.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

if our skill advantage allows us to overcome 35% difference equity AND no initiative, then this really isn't reg vs reg anymore.

WTF is this ****? Patting yourself on the back for sucking out does not make it an optimal play, it is a losing play regardless of the single case outcome. If you are good enough to consistently win bloated pots against good players with a much weaker range all because of positional advantage, we should be hiding our children, hiding our wives, hiding our husbands, cause you be raping everybody up in this place.

it is only a flip if we get to see 5 cards. And yes, we are behind:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.379% 54.16% 00.22% 979234152 4050234.00 { QQ-22 }
Hand 1: 45.621% 45.40% 00.22% 820858404 4050234.00 { AKs, AKo }

so if you are only hitting few flops and you are reg who likes to make moves post flop, especially in bloated pots, I will notice and adjust accordingly. Bad regs who play people like they don't adjust are still bad regs. HUD's are wonderful things.

also there is a difference between 100BB and 100bb. DUCY?


at 160bb it can be okay to set mine FWIW.

You are so all over place. If I'm flopping an ace in a 3b pot with AK, good luck moving me off from your utg, especially once I know you are active post flop.

hand reading and bluffs are +EV, but playing bloated pots vs a much stronger range is -EV. I doubt your bluffing in a bloated pot makes up for the times I have a hand, as you risked significantly more money to move me off and I can choose to not put in money from the get go with hands that do not connect.

motherofgod.jpg

if we are talking about weak players this is fine. fish love pretty hands. we all love playing fish. playing regs like they are fish is LOLdumb. if he's calling utg with AJ/AQ like a bad player, it is so easy to 3b AK. if he's like most standard regs these days, he isn't. its funny how you say people have hard times folding pretty hands, when you yourself have a hard time folding them yourself. and didn't you say you play 23/20, so you know his utg range?





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I agree this strat thread is fairly frustrating to read on advice. my take:

flatting pre is fine, strengthening your calling range oop is very good. getting it in pre usually amts to 40/60 not your favor vs the standard QQ+ AK anyhow. watch some nikachu video, is good.

I like the turn cr, though may make it a little bigger, maybe 4-4.50, follow up with an 8.5-9 river bet.

vs the river min raise i probably fold, doubt i'm good the 1 of 4 times i need to be correct. if i had seen him do some weird line before hand i might be worried about smaller Ax's making a play or missed bd flush draw trying to take the pot, if so it is a sigh call, but if not I'm saying its fine to fold.

hi i'm late to the party but...

i'd rather lead turn than c/r.

although I admit my reason for it is mostly only to do with balancing (which is lolunnecessary at micros I guess). And because I think while c/r turn + river bet potentially extracts max value from Ax, lead turn + lead river extracts much more value from his overall range that may include any pocket pair that decided to check back flop as a pot control line intending to call on any turns and rivers.

and tbh I think it's a bit elitist of you (OP) when you distinguish posters based on 'establishedness' or w/e and criticise '******ed posts'. I mean, we're all learning right and people may post just to see if their thought process is on the right track.

If you play it passively like this preflop (which I like a lot BTW), you shouldn't check raise turn. thought behind it:
if you check call turn, he will bet rivers mostlikely with air to fold out random TT-77 range, that you would probably play similar to the check check , check call line.
its hard to get value from worse when check raising and betting river. because everything that you beat will likely just fold river anyways and not looking to bluff catch much, since your range is superstrong with that line.
so just check call turn check call river is ur best line. if you have more reads, you can check call, and check raise river against certain type of opponents

taking this line on occasions will protect you from getting bluffed in the future or from thin value bets by a thinking villain.

clarifying:

You would happily sacrifice possibly missing one more street of value from SDV hands (although likelihood of getting that second valuebet may be heavily diminished depending on a lot of stuff) in exchange for the possibility that villain tries to barrel us off our perceived SDV hand?

personally i think i would take a bet turn, bet river line more often than the c/c turn, c/c river line, so i'd rather balance the former more

But fold river as villain is likely to be nutted given heros line and villains responce?

betting turn is pretty stupid as you fold out most his air that would normally bet, and what will call you, will more likely bet turn adn bet river anyways.
try it like this:

1.break up his range into parts:
- total air
- hands that have showdown value that you beat
- hands that have showdown value that beat you
- hands that have very little (1 street) value in them

2. see what he will do with each part of his range against certain lines

- if you bet out turn
- if you check raise turn
- if you check call turn

EDIT : and this should be your thought process most of the time in most situations, because this is how you play multi-street poker. think a street at least ahead, have a plan. The I will call/raise/check and reconsider next street line will not cut it in today's games anymore

river is a crappy spot when he raises we shouldn't be good there often. but we don't need to be to make that call. I think personally it's a fold. Check raise check call line isn't bad either if you have dynamic, which you probably don't since you posted no previous history.

how is a play like turn ch/r that gets value out of a wider range (bluffs AND Ax) ever bad?

What is his SN? I am a $25nl merge reg too Come to think of it, what is your SN so I can avoid you?

RESULTTTSSSSS LDO

LOL. I hope for your own sake you are joking.

Sorry mate, but you are only thinking at level two here unfortunately. (Nothing wrong with this) To you, there are two types of players and you base your ranges off of the two different player types. What are they? Reg and Fish, that's all you know. If the poker world was this easy, we would all be rich. However, At level three you start understanding this isn't correct at all. These two genres breakdown into subgenres.

We got Tight, Nits, Fish, Regs. Then we break it down further: Fish are spewtards, call stations, exc. Regs are LAGs, TAGs. Then they get broken down further, LAGFISH. (This is at higher stakes though becomes LAGS and TAGs the regs become the fish. Anyways you get the point and it keeps getting broken down becomes edges become smaller and fundamental bases are ranges are isolated. However no need to dive into this deep.)
The correct preflop call ranges that a reg could have here is:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,181,402,976 games 5.913 secs 1,214,510,904 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.750% 33.58% 02.17% 2411281152 156101714.00 { 22+, AJs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 64.250% 62.08% 02.17% 4457918396 156101714.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

My own calling range here is not the above posted. My own thought process is more advanced then this. I am basing my call on who I am up against and whom I have position on. Because my plays are more based on playing the player, not my cards. I am calling a more solid range vs certain player types of 22+ 78s-TJs, Ajs, Aqo,AQs,AKs,AKo. And finally, I am calling wider for other player types. I don't care what position I am in from UTG to BB it does not matter. I am raising with equity hands vs fish, which play well vs fish oop or ip, it matters not. When I get three bet with and have Tjs vs a button then I am folding. (Unless I am up against a spewtard aggro fish is the only exception to this.) It is a -EV play to play this hand oop . When I get three bet vs BB as a UTG raiser with Tjs, I am calling, because his range is isolated, and I know exactly where I stand while in position.(I can also fold this hand, I need the right player type to play this hand profitably in position vs.) This is of course is not standard and is more advanced. I am simply explaining to you, because you asked. Position is always important.

However most regs are raising with any Axs, 22+, Kqs, AJ+ from UTG, and more advanced ones raised with suited connectors and broadways from any position. They are calling with any pair, Ajs+. Tighter regs are calling with pairs based on stack sizes and AK+

No offense, but you odviously don't understand fundamentals. A suckout is when a player wins a hand and makes a play that has extremely low equity vs the leading hand by all cards dealt. A example: AA vs KK, stacks are in and he hits a K on flop, (Play has finished, money has been put in the KK is crushed drawing to two outs he hits a two outer hence a suckout.) Same situation, they play the flop on the river is a K and player two does a huge jam on river for 100bbs and AA calls. He did not suck him out, because closing play was never established, KK had the best hand on the river and AA should of established that he was beat on the river, he simply was (rivered aka hey dan you win? Naw man I got rivered) Suckouts are only when closing play has been established and no further play can be taken.

You seriously underestimate the power of position. Which is typical from what you are telling me your thought process is and nothing surprising, and is also a leak btw, but that is for you to discover and find out later.

Your basic thought process is correct mate, but what makes a good reg a good reg is knowing when to move you off and not too. If you aren't good enough to hand read in spots like this, then you shouldn't be playing hands like suited connectors from this position and should be playing a basic ABC game of pairs and Ajs+, which most do play here.

Yes I am not playing pretty hands in wrong situations. Did you know 89s is a better hand to have here calling then KQs? Why is that? It should be odvious, and if you don't know the answer to this question, then you should do some homework. Hope I cleared some stuff up for you.

Why has he got to have a big hand just because he is utg?
It's 5 handed so surely he could have almost anything there, I'd Prefer a 3bet pre so at least we might have some idea what we're up against and maybe take it down on flop with a c-bet. Just because he's a reg does that mean he only plays premium hands?

thanks, you are right. here i'm targeting Ax, but if i check/call the turn and check the river he'll be betting that stuff anyway.

for the people who wanted results, i snapped, he showed 55.

why did you not answer my question?

because i'm not outed?

what do you mean outed?

He's not gay brah. Villain's line is pretty funny, I would comment but it would only be to fold river as played, and that may be influenced by the results above.

bigacsiga's posts were good reading.

LOL

?

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in any case, turn x/r is bad because once again you're targetting different ranges

by checking turn you hope that he bets air/Ax that he checked back flop with (ace is a "scarecard" and some of his checking back range on a paired board can be Ax).

by check raising, you blow out all his air and some of his Ax because of lolbelugawhale theorem

so if you flat pre you should x/c turn and x/c river, or lead turn lead river

as played it's meh because microregs bluffshove river close to 0% unless they're tilting

Calling the turn and raising the river small is a better line since you let him continue to bluff his air on the river.

you cant really plan on raising river either bc villain will just turbofold all 1pair hands like OP should do when he gets raised on the river as played.