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Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic

03-03-2011 , 01:22 PM
Could I get a line check please? We'd played once before, but the last match went painfully standard, and the only big pots we'd played were coolers, so I should generally be unremarkable here.

We'd played 20 hands this session so far, and I've 3bet him five times. He folded the first two times. He called the third time and folded to a flop cbet. He 4bet the fourth time and I folded. This is my fifth 3bet, and his second 4bet.

Merge - $0.50 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BB): $50.00
SB: $82.75

SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has J Q

SB raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $5.00, SB raises to $12.00, Hero raises to $50.00 and is all-in

I'm really really new to heads up, and I understand that these "feel" spots can be difficult to quantify. I calculated my 0EV FE and it's 51%. I do have 31% equity vs TT+, AQ and AK, and I think, given history, it's safe to assume he folds a ton here, especially since I'd been showing an obnoxious amount of aggression as of late. Thanks, and cheers!
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 01:36 PM
I wouldn't 3bet QJs with that dynamic. IF I would do it (which I can't imagine I ever would ), I would do it with the intention of shoving over his 4bet, but that sucks actually.

Just don't 3bet QJs
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 01:39 PM
Hmm, interesting. I 3bet here for value because I thought he could also adjust by calling more 3bets.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noppey
I wouldn't 3bet QJs with that dynamic. IF I would do it (which I can't imagine I ever would ), I would do it with the intention of shoving over his 4bet, but that sucks actually.

Just don't 3bet QJs
Why would 3-betting be bad here? If he's 3-bet 25% QJs is the better part of his expected range. I don't hate the shove at all here, as I think it folds out a large portion of his currently expected 4-bet range.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 02:54 PM
My coach thinks my thought process in the hand is too messy, and I can't quite disagree with him.

I basically figured he'd be adjusting by now, either by calling lighter, in which case QJs fares quite well, or by 4betting light, in which case I fold out a good chunk of his probable 4bet range.

The faults with this thought process is that this isn't as good a hand to 5bet shove with as I'd like, and that I do give up some value by 3betting instead of flatting if he does end up 4betting light a ton. Thoughts?
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair
Hmm, interesting. I 3bet here for value because I thought he could also adjust by calling more 3bets.
dont make assumptions until you have evidence to suggest it, i mean especially if your playing a fishy type player and not someone you respect you are severly outleveling yourself here by assuming he would make adjustments.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-03-2011 , 07:52 PM
This is really fine at 200nl, but maybe at 50nl they arent 3bet folding/3betting light enough to justify.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foldAK
This is really fine at 200nl, but maybe at 50nl they arent 3bet folding/3betting light enough to justify.
you mean 4bet/folding right? tons of villains 3bet fold at 50nl (to a lesser degree than 200nl granted), but you're right if you meant that rarely do villains 4bet/fold at 50nl.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 03:01 AM
damn that hand is too pretty to shove. im gonna hafta agree w flatting pre is best. i honestly would rather do this w A3o or K2s.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spring83
damn that hand is too pretty to shove. im gonna hafta agree w flatting pre is best. i honestly would rather do this w A3o or K2s.
I agree I think ur range should be polarized a bit here and Q-Js should not be in your 5-bet shove range. I'm guessing ur 5-bet shove is a bluff but I'm not sure, are you?
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 03:23 AM
I would put him weak aswell in this spot. It looks like he wanted to b the agressor and take the pot with a cbet at the flop without being weird as he was first to act. Good moove, he folded right?
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicFlair
My coach thinks my thought process in the hand is too messy, and I can't quite disagree with him.

I basically figured he'd be adjusting by now, either by calling lighter, in which case QJs fares quite well, or by 4betting light, in which case I fold out a good chunk of his probable 4bet range.

The faults with this thought process is that this isn't as good a hand to 5bet shove with as I'd like, and that I do give up some value by 3betting instead of flatting if he does end up 4betting light a ton. Thoughts?
If someone is 4b light a ton I actually think qjs a fine hand to 3b with assuming his 4b size is standard. You have to have some hands you can just call with and qjs will play ok vs a light 4b range
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote
03-04-2011 , 04:26 AM
Thanks guys, this generated a lot of interesting discussion. This looks close I guess, but I'm glad I was able to identify problems in my thought process.

The 5bet shove seems fine, but the issue lies more in the selection of the hand to 3bet/5betshove with. I may have been jumping the gun by thinking that he could adjust by calling lighter or 4betting lighter and that QJs is a hand that fares well in both scenarios.
Very early 5bet bluffshove, "I am trying to run you over" dynamic Quote

      
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