I don't see any reason to donk into the 3-bettor on the flop or turn (let alone check-raise him). You are always getting called by better and very rarely getting called by worse.

Preflop, you are very likely behind after his 3-bet - even with a 30 hand sample, a 30/6 is pretty passive (i.e., he's played 9 hands and only raised twice) and is usually only 3betting with narrow range. Even if you think he is inclined to play back at your steals, these types of players generally do that by calling wider and hoping to hit a flop, rather than 3betting. I would put him on a range of {AQ+,TT+} preflop, though with a high degree of uncertainty. That said, since you are 250bb deep, I think you can call OOP with JJ. If you spike a set, you can get his stack and if the board runs out with low cards, you can often get your jacks to showdown cheaply against this player, who is unlikely to cause you great difficulties if he has AK or AQ.

On the flop, I don't see any point in donking. You don't know anything about villain's cbetting stats, but you can usually expect a cbet in a 3bet pot. When he does cbet, the only hand in the above range that you are beating is AK. However, since he is likely to stab with AK (which makes up about a 1/3 of his range) and you are getting 3:1 to call, I think you can call the flop. More importantly than the odds (in my opinion), is the fact that loose-passive players like a 30/6 tend not to fire 2nd barrels without a hand, so we have a legitimate chance of getting our jacks to showdown. Against a TAG, I think the flop is a check-fold (and you can argue about whether to call the 3-bet preflop). That said, my plan in calling would be to give up if he fires again on the turn.

On the turn, I don't see any benefit to leading out. You aren't going to fold out any better hands and I doubt you are getting any worse hands to call.

On the river, I don't see any point to your lead. Although he showed weakness by checking back on the turn, I don't see any worse hands that call your bet. If he checks back and shows AK, I don't think you are losing any value because I really don't think he is calling with A high on the river. It goes without saying that no better hand is folding to your river bet. If you check, there is also a chance that the villain might take a stab with AK. You can decide whether to call a modest river bet based on pot odds and any feel you have for whether the villain might bluff the river.

When villain shoves, clear fold, as you did. There is a small possibility that he is doing this with AK, but with this villain I think that happens nowhere near often enough to make a call profitable. More likely villain has QQ and TT and checked the turn in the hope that you were on a straight or flush draw that would connect on the river (or that his check would induce you to lead out like you did).

Thanks for that SCF - it's really cool of you to give so much advice to someone you've never heard of before.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. I just wonder if I check the turn and river isn't the villain going to bet into me with pretty much any two cards? Given I'm probably folding that is there an arguement for folding pre since I'm only going to spike a Jack 4% of the time and even then he can turn up with an over-set?

I don't think that folding pre is terrible, since you are facing a 3bet from a player with a PFR of 6. However, because the player seems to play passively, I think a call is OK because you can often get to showdown. (Also, spike a jack on the flop around 8% of the time.)

However, the flop is bad for you based on villain's assumed range of {AQ+,TT+}. Notice that you went from being ahead of 38 combos {AK,AQ,TT} and behind 18 combos {QQ+} preflop to being ahead of only 16 combos {AK} and behind 30 combos {AQ,QQ+,TT}. A big chunk of the hands you were ahead of {AQ,TT} moved ahead of you. (You're obviously tying the one combo of JJ in his range.)

So check/folding the flop is certainly OK and the only reason you can consider a call is because there is a decent chance of getting to showdown cheaply. If your read is that the villain can keep firing, then this becomes more of a fold (as I mentioned above, I'm folding to a TAG here).

When the turn checks though, if you think villain can bluff the river with ATC, then you have a decision to make if he bets. (A check on the river is still correct imo; he won't call with the hands he might bluff and you're only value-towning yourself when he has you beat).

For example, if he bets 1/2 pot into you, you can consider a call. If the range set forth above is accurate and if he fires 100% of the time when he has AK, which is 34% (16 out of 46 combos) of the range set forth above (he's probably checking back with the 1 combo of JJ), then you are getting 3:1 on you call and it is a good call. However, if he fires 50% of the time with AK, then you only have 21% equity against his range and its a bad call.

In short, you need to evaluate the likelihood that he would bluff with AK here (plus consider his actual bet size). You can change the numbers and run the math to see when there is a good call. My general thought is a generic 2NL villain who looks somewhat loose-passive probably doesn't bluff enough for this to be a call under most circumstances, but that's a very sketchy read because we have so little information.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the range I guessed is inaccurate (we only have 30 hands), and I'm drawing inference upon inference in this hand. Some posters would tell you that the sample is too small to bother with any inferences, but my way of thinking is that it's the best we have so we have to make some working assumptions, as long as we remember that there is a high degree of uncertainty.

P.S. You're welcome. Of course, posting helps me clarify my own thoughts on things and practice working though the issues. Take this (and everything you read in these forums) with a grain of salt. Someone may very well show up with input very different than mine (and they may be better or worse).

Absolutely readless... Calldown allright?

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) ZOOM - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BTN): $6.74
SB: $6.31
BB: $7.30
UTG: $3.64
MP: $5.05
CO: $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q Q

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, BB raises to $0.38, Hero calls $0.26

Flop: ($0.78, 2 players) 5 2 6
BB bets $0.56, Hero calls $0.56

Turn: ($1.90, 2 players) 6
BB bets $1.36, Hero calls $1.36

River: ($4.62, 2 players) 4
BB bets $2.21, Hero calls $2.21

^ I think its allright, his betsizeing looks like TT,JJ, think with the odds your good here enough of the time

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) ZOOM - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $16.73
SB: $17.96
Hero (BB): $16.50
UTG: $24.71
MP: $30.21
CO: $10.47

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has A K

fold, fold, CO calls $0.10, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85, 2 players) 7 A 3
Hero bets $0.60, CO calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.05, 2 players) 3
Hero bets $1.47, CO calls $1.47

River: ($4.99, 2 players) 9
Hero bets $2.86, CO raises to $8.00 and is all-in,

easy fold right ?

Yes, What do u beat on his river raise?

Vs. a standard 10NL villain, I believe so. And since it's zoom, I think you have to assume a standard villain.

Villain is 64/0, over only 14 hands, but clearly a fish with a 71% open limp (5/7) and cold-called 2/2. No real post-flop reads. This is a standard bet/fold on the river, right? (And bet more on the turn?)

Merge - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $9.43
BTN: $24.52
SB: $2.35
BB: $5.34
UTG: $12.45
Hero (MP): $10.93

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has T T

fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, fold, fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95, 3 players) J 4 3
BB checks, Hero bets $0.63, fold, BB calls $0.63

Turn: ($2.21, 2 players) 8
BB checks, Hero bets $1.10, BB calls $1.10

River: ($4.41, 2 players) 3
BB checks, Hero ???

Vil is 13/9 over 25 hands. Doesn't mean much over this sample size, but 3bet is 0. Is this too weak?

PartyGaming - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $3.53
SB: $2.00
BB: $1.98
UTG: $2.22
MP: $1.20
Hero (CO): $2.00

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has J J

fold, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.24, fold, fold

Your turn bet sizing is fine imo, probably induces wider calling if he's the fish you suspect. I'd half pot the river.
I would almost always call in your position.

I fold this aswell. the small sample size on him can also cause trouble later

villain has 33/16 AF:1, 3bet from CO: 22% (9 hands), 3bet overall is 8.5%. I have 169 hands on him

Fold to cbet in 3bet pot 50% (2/4), raised cbet in 3bet pot once.

One thing I do know is I shouldve 4bet pf way bigger, like 1.40(?).. But what about the flop?

Pre looks fine to me. Why would you want to 4bet it larger? The villain min-3bet it, so a raise to 15bb is a pot-sized raise and you overbet it up to 18bb, which seems fine to me (maybe you can bet it up to 20bb or so). If you bet it up to 28bb like you suggest, I think you fold out hands like AQ and AJs that you want him to continue with. I realize you are deep and want to build the pot with AK, but you are out of position, so I think it's better to keep the dominated hands in his range, as that is where you are going to make money (rather than flopping an A or K vs. QQ or JJ).

On the flop, I would cbet no more than a 1/2 psb, as it's a 3bet pot. He either has a good pair (or possibly a NFD) or he doesn't. I doubt the extra 6bb has an impact on your fold equity. Depending on the villain, you might even be able to get away with less. I definitely fold to a raise here, when the villain has an AF of 1. Because his aggression is so low, he's very unlikely to be doing this with a flush draw (and he has very few flush draw combos in his range anyway).

I think this is a close question either way. Villain seems like a potential TAG or nit (could go either way with a larger sample), in either case with unknown 3-betting tendencies. I think hero's stats are important here - this villain seems likely to have a HUD or at least be paying attention.

If hero has been isolating the limping fish in MP every other hand, this becomes a call because we have position and a TAG who thinks we are abusing the fish may 3bet us more widely here.

If we've haven't been that active, I tend to give credit to the first 3bet from a TAG/potential nit and fold. JJ will also be tricky to play post-flop, even in position - particularly villain barrels away on us and we don;t have any good reads on his post-flop play.

Very good point thanks for the analysis

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $2.24 (22.4 bb)
SB: $10.04 (100.4 bb)
BB: $19.97 (199.7 bb)
UTG: $7.67 (76.7 bb)
MP: $12.41 (124.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $16.56 (165.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J K
UTG raises to $1.50, MP folds, Hero calls $1.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.15) 2 J 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $2.10, Hero calls $2.10

Turn: ($7.35) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $4.07 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.07

River: ($15.49) 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

it's a zoom hand, villain had a ~40-50bb stack and just 3bet me as MP when i was UTG the hand before, with ATo and called a shove from someone else that had KK and he hit his A on the flop, he looked pretty much like a gambling maniac to me

6max 4nl

No reads, no stats, no history with villain.. he's just sat down and posted oop, utg with a random amount (~50BB).


Villain open shoves

Hero next to act Dealt (AdKd) ...........? Fistpump shove?


I have 250BB, the player behind me has ~50BB and rest of the table have ~ 100BB

My concern is about the rest of the table not the spewtard utg

Snap shove. All of the reads you provided (posted oop, bought in with a random amount) indicate that this is a spew monkey and you are way ahead of his range. There is no point in just calling, as you are going to have to call a shove from anyone behind you with effective stacks at only 100bb, so you might as well shove to get head's up with UTG, or at least make anyone behind you put it all in if they want to see a flop. If someone wakes up with KK+, just reload.

Here are a few threads on a similar topic:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...-call-1185324/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...table-1187234/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...-here-1188777/

The kind of line you are taking with this sort of hand lowers your AF, and widens the gap between your vpip and w$wsf, effectively making you a weaker postflop player to your opponents.

Don't be weak Shove flop here, you have so much equity.

only reason i didnt shove the flop is like i said... villain looked like a gambler and didnt mind betting big amounts, didnt want to push him off whatever hand he was and let him believe he had some fold equity.

H1: Villain - Unknown

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $11.00
UTG: $11.95
CO: $17.71
Hero (BTN): $10.00
SB: $10.00

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has A Q

fold, CO raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, fold, CO calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.15, 2 players) 8 8 T
CO checks, Hero bets $1.23, CO calls $1.23

Turn: ($4.61, 2 players) 9
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($4.61, 2 players) T
CO checks, Hero checks


H2: Villain - 18 hands 61/44/inf F3B: 0/2 FCB: 3/3

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $38.04
SB: $10.76
Hero (BB): $10.10
UTG: $10.22
MP: $10.84
CO: $10.25

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.30, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, BTN calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.05, 2 players) 6 7 J
Hero bets $1.17, BTN calls $1.17

Turn: ($4.39, 2 players) T
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, fold


H3: Villain - Unknown

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $37.98
UTG: $10.00
Hero (MP): $10.00
CO: $8.99
BTN: $10.27
SB: $10.05

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has T T

fold, Hero raises to $0.45, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.35

Flop: ($0.95, 2 players) 2 5 K
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.95, 2 players) 3
BB bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

River: ($3.55, 2 players) 2
BB bets $1.30, fold


H4: Villain - 107 hands 29/18/1.36

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $10.96
BB: $24.73
UTG: $12.74
MP: $12.10
Hero (CO): $10.95
BTN: $8.32

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has J K

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.35, fold, fold, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75, 2 players) 4 K 3
BB bets $0.54, Hero raises to $1.89, BB calls $1.35

Turn: ($4.53, 2 players) 4
BB checks, Hero bets $3.68, BB calls $3.68

River: ($11.89, 2 players) T
BB checks, Hero checks


H5: Villain - 40 hands 30/23/2.25 AtS: 5/7 F3B: 2/2

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $16.35
SB: $15.17
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $34.12

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has 5 6

fold, BTN raises to $0.30, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, BTN calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.05, 2 players) 8 4 2
Hero bets $1.17, BTN calls $1.17

Turn: ($4.39, 2 players) 5
Hero bets $2.51, BTN calls $2.51

River: ($9.41, 2 players) 6
Hero bets $5.32 and is all-in

Bet/fold river instead?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $13.98
CO: $10.00
BTN: $7.89
Hero (SB): $10.23
BB: $14.78

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, fold

Flop: ($0.50, 2 players) 7 5 2
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, BTN calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.50, 2 players) 4
Hero bets $1.10, BTN calls $1.10

River: ($3.70, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, BTN checks


vs fish:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $7.47
BB: $8.86
UTG: $10.02
MP: $9.02
Hero (CO): $10.00
BTN: $12.85

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has T K

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.05, 2 players) 7 8 T
BB bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.80, BB calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.65, 2 players) 4
BB checks, Hero bets $2.00, BB calls $2.00

River: ($6.65, 2 players) J
BB checks, Hero checks


Villain 10/8 after 40 odd hands but with 11 3bet%:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $10.21
SB: $10.57
BB: $14.59
UTG: $6.24
MP: $8.59
Hero (CO): $10.94

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has J J

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, SB raises to $1.10, fold, Hero calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.30, 2 players) 5 T 2
SB bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

Turn: ($4.90, 2 players) A
SB bets $2.90, fold

H1: Against an unknown at 10NL you have no reason to believe you can push him off a pair after he calls your cbet, so checking down seems fine, especially as your ace might win on the river.

H2: I would fire a second barrel on the turn. You pick up equity with an OESD and the third diamond is a scare card. His range is super wide and probably can't take much heat.

H3: Call river and take a note on what he donks with. He probably has Kx, but you are getting about 3.75:1 on your money and he can show up with 44-TT the way this board ran out. If you are going to fold, do it on the turn - the river was a complete blank.

H4: Seems OK. You can make a case for a river bet against a villain who seems pretty passive, but with the limited information on villain, I can't argue with a check back. Depends upon whether we have seen villain get tricky at all in the past.

H5: Fold pre. 65o is a lousy hand with which to 3bet light. First, a hand like 65s at least gives you boards you can barrel. Second, there are a lot more offsuit connector hands than suited connectors - if you start 3-betting offsuited connectors, you are going to start skewing your range towards light 3-betting.

As played, flop is definitely worth a cbet. On the turn you pick up a little equity, so a second barrel seems OK. On the river, I think it is a close call. When you 3-bet, bet, bet, shove, the villain has to put you on a strong range, which on this board is likely to be KK+. If he had KK+ himself, he should have 4bet pre (especially BTN vs BB, where you are more likely to think he is FOS). If he has 99-QQ, he's likely going to fold the river - so you should only get called by a hand that can beat AA and KK, which would most likely be a set. On the other hand, if he thinks you are capable of doing this with AK, then the shove seems OK. I think this really depends upon how you have seen the villain play post-flop and what you have seen him float / call down / slowplay.

Totally villain dependent. If he is very passive, then bet/fold. If he is unlikely to call with worse, checking is fine.

No clue what the fish is doing here and need to know what kind of fish. Is this a 60/2 fish or a 55/45 fish? In a vacuum, I would guess that this is AK, AQ or AJ, so I don't see any value in betting river. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

Your sample is too small to read much into the 11% 3bet. That said, calling in position with JJ seems OK here and calling the cbet also seems OK. I agree with fold on the turn, as you are now way behind almost all of his range.