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unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day?

08-10-2010 , 09:40 AM
villain = LAG

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($25)
Hero ($26.10)
CO ($17.30)
BTN ($25)

Dealt to Hero A 4

fold, fold, SB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50

FLOP ($1.50) A 8 7

SB bets $1.50, Hero raises to $24.84, SB calls $22.75 (AI)

TURN ($50) A 8 7 7

RIVER ($50) A 8 7 7 Q
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 09:44 AM
Not really sure why you want to polarize him to only hands you're drawing from behind against, when you are holding the best hand a lot.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 09:49 AM
I don't really like the massive overbet shove. Unless you have a specific read that it makes an opponent spaz off all his chips. Since I don't see anything about that I'm going to say it's a bad play. You're only going to get called when you're behind IMO.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 10:47 AM
I offer this as a reasonable calling range for villain:

Board: As 8h 7h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.510% 39.96% 01.55% 14638 567.00 { Ah4h }
Hand 1: 58.490% 56.94% 01.55% 20858 567.00 { AA, 88-77, AQs+, A8s-A7s, Th9h, 6h5h, AQo+, A8o-A7o }


Of course he is going to fold the majority of his range, but there's only $3 dead money in the pot. The calling range I've given him is 6.3% of hands. if he's a LAG then lets say he opens 40% of hands in the SB and cbets an Axx board 100% of the time.

So he's calling us 15.75% of the time and folding 85.25% of the time.

When he calls, we've put in an additional $24.25 and our return is (50*0.415) = 20.75

(20.75 - 24.24) = -3.5 * 0.1575 = -0.55

When he folds: 3 * 0.8525 = 2.56


So our equity is 2.56 - 0.55 = +$2.01


Your shove has a small positive expectation. We've got pretty good equity when called and he has a wide opening & c-betting range on this board that he has to fold most of.

My suspicion is that just calling his bet IP will have a greater positive expectation. Obviously it's near impossible to calculate the equity of calling on the flop because there are so many variables; but my first instinct was that this was the best play.

A smaller raise is another option. This will keep his weaker and mostly dominated draws involved, and invites a bit of bluff/low equity semi-bluff spew from an aggressive player.

Cliffs: we have so much equity against a wide range that we can't make a -EV play here. Shoving shows a small positive expectation, but - although it's virtually impossible to quantify - calling or making a normal sized raise are likely a greater expectation than simply shoving.

Last edited by blame_hofmann; 08-10-2010 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Forgot 78 in his calling range and forgot to deduct rake, oh well.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 01:20 PM
Definitely get it in. You have TP + NFD. If he has AK, you have 12 outs.

I really recommend using poker stove and learning your odds against ranges.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky
If he has AK, you have 12 outs.
Surely everytime will are called here will have 12 outs, apart from him having a flopped set. Even spastic LAG's arent calling off 100bb's on the flop with less than A4 ?
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky
Definitely get it in. You have TP + NFD. If he has AK, you have 12 outs.

I really recommend using poker stove and learning your odds against ranges.
Right because we make our decisions based on how many outs we have against one particular hand in his range. Why turn TP into a bluff? Sure we don't mind getting all-in because we're never doing that bad but unless we think we can get it in vs. dominated draws this is a super-easy flop flat.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 01:53 PM
Is this a normal line that people take? You are folding out all of the bluffs that might fire again on the turn. Also, you are folding out most of the hands that beat you. But heads-up, aren't you far more likely to run up against bluffs and worse hands than yours?
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 02:18 PM
This is a terrible hand. I prefer calling flop/turn. If he's aggro, he could be barreling hearts. You showdown against better Ace hands that are checking river instead of getting stacked and keep in all his bluffs.

There's no value here shoving besides getting crushed or flipping when he calls.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
Why turn TP into a bluff?
This.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:01 PM
Semi-grunch, read Zeth's 1st and +1

There's more value in letting a LAG mistakenly bluff off his stack when he's either slightly ahead or drawing dead instead of Hero turning a decent made hand into a semi-bluff that allows LAG to play perfectly by folding all of his bluffs.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:32 PM
LAG or no LAG, when we shove here we narrow his range & concentrate his thinking, at that point he can still fold, which would be ok, but he continues only with the top of his range. Flat flop, let him fire again on the turn.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
Semi-grunch, read Zeth's 1st and +1

There's more value in letting a LAG mistakenly bluff off his stack when he's either slightly ahead or drawing dead instead of Hero turning a decent made hand into a semi-bluff that allows LAG to play perfectly by folding all of his bluffs.
agree 94%
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:41 PM
against a LAG/Maniac
you want to raise with made monsters or with hands just not quite good enough to call with

with this hand, you have a marginal made hand that can grow into a monster plus position
don't undervalue position here
it allows you to have some control over how big the pot gets.
you can almost control the small hand for small pot, big hand for big pot in this situation.
If you end up with just the pair of aces, you have a good bluff catcher (call down hand) versus a LAG/maniac shorthanded. If you end up 2 pairing on the turn, or hitting the flush, you can raise and create the big pot.

look at the LAGs range here. The only hands ahead of you that you will fold out are like AT and AJ. By not raising, you run the risk of allowing underpairs and straight draws to catch. However, that range is smaller than the bluff range and you have good equity for redraws on all of them.
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 04:49 PM
and let me explain more by looking at what types of hands I'd raise with here

AK, AQ (some of the time), A8, A7, 87, AA, 88, 77, JT (except not the suited hearts combo), 54, any two suited spades higher than 8 except T9

my calling range would be the following that didn't go into the raising range above: Ax, any two hearts, T9, 65, KK-99, T8, 98, 97, 76

fold the rest

something like that
not as many bluffs as usual against the LAG since mid-range suited connected flops catch a piece of their range a large amount of the time and the ace catches ranges a lot
unfilled full ring 25nl Shove all day? Quote
08-10-2010 , 05:09 PM
If he also has a fd, when you shove he might fold thinking you have a set. If you just call the flop he could give up on the turn, and most times he'll have some bs, and we can even check the turn back with a long timer to try and induce a river bluff, because we also have the nfd.
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