is this too weak? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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is this too weak?

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01-04-2010 , 06:39 AM

fr_kevin01

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 10

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Full Tilt
SB ($15.35)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($25)
CO ($2.62)
BTN ($38.67)

Dealt to Hero A

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.75, fold, Hero calls $0.50

FLOP ($1.60) K

Hero checks, BTN bets $1, Hero calls $1

TURN ($3.60) K

Hero checks, BTN bets $2.25, Hero calls $2.25

RIVER ($8.10) K

Hero checks, BTN bets $3.75, Hero calls $3.75

BTN shows 7

(Pre 32%, Flop 22.4%, Turn 13.6%)

Hero shows A

(Pre 68%, Flop 77.6%, Turn 86.4%)

Hero wins $14.82

Villain plays 40/40/inf but only 5 hands

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01-04-2010 , 06:42 AM

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

I like leading river around potsize to rep busted fd´s. He´s usually not folding Kx but he is usually checking those behind

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01-04-2010 , 06:53 AM

gezAA

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 26

3bet preflop. bet flop, bet turn, bet river.

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01-04-2010 , 06:58 AM

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by gezAA

3bet preflop. bet flop, bet turn, bet river.

And as played...?

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01-04-2010 , 07:01 AM

Krax

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,918

As played raise turn/river

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01-04-2010 , 07:02 AM

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

Why would we raise flop, readless and w/o history?

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01-04-2010 , 07:03 AM

sameguttenante

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 639

I think this line is fine oop vs. an unknown villain.
Leading river is an option to get more value from weaker aces, but we would have to fold to a raise. A lot of villains think Ax is the nuts here and would raise it if we lead out, and we don't really want to be raised out of this pot so c/c isn't bad.

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01-04-2010 , 07:05 AM

curly86

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,451

Raise turn, so you can set up river shove

As played Id lead river for close to pot

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01-04-2010 , 07:08 AM

D1iabol1cal

WSOS Champion

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 28,999

I think b/c the river seems like a good option as played.

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01-04-2010 , 07:11 AM

#10

RomforFD

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 532

i dont like c/c esp on all 3 streets!

so much value lost

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01-04-2010 , 08:48 AM

#11

hi guys im link

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 202

This is pretty weak. Without any reads we can safely assume that villain's range is mostly for value on the turn. Since we have pretty much all value hands beat and those hand also continue we can raise. If he calls the turn raise shove the river even if it's an overbet.

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01-04-2010 , 09:45 AM

#12

gotnonick

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,132

i'd raise turn or at least Donk pot on river like tonitto said

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01-04-2010 , 09:48 AM

#13

Zor_Bas

newbie

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 19

Weak play. IMO 3-bet preflop.

As played I would raise turn/river

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01-04-2010 , 09:58 AM

#14

hi guys im link

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 202

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonitto

I like leading river around potsize to rep busted fd´s. He´s usually not folding Kx but he is usually checking those behind

I think c/r might be slightly more profitable here. A lot of players would check either the flop or turn with a K and not bet both streets. Also, our donking pot on the river requires him to be able to hand read and act out on it without history. I think we will gain more value by c/ring the river and getting maximum value from Ace than hoping he makes a hero call with a king.

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01-04-2010 , 10:01 AM

#15

snijper91

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr_kevin01

is this too weak?

Yes!!!

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01-04-2010 , 10:06 AM

#16

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi guys im link

Well, if villain is good he is betting stuff like QK ott because of the fd and to have a free sd (most of the time).

Since we don´t know how good he is it´s tough to figure out what´s the best line otr.

C/r river gets only called (or shoved on) by Ax but we could gain another bet from air to fold out a possible fd.

Oh well it´s close, I don´t mind either line

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01-04-2010 , 10:15 AM

#17

hi guys im link

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 202

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonitto

More I think about this I think I'm being influenced by OP showing the results because I know A7s is in his hand range so I know he can have a lot of weaker aces. There is good argument in donking the river not to rep busted flush draws but because there is a good chance vs a random that they might even check an ace on the river. And we guarantee that we get max value from his whole range.

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01-04-2010 , 10:27 AM

#18

uncle_chopchop

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,795

3b pf cause most villain will 4b AK

raise somewhere cause most players are opening a tonne of Ax hands on the button and we are ony beat by AK - so much value lost just playing c/c 3 st

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01-04-2010 , 10:41 AM

#19

Greco

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,564

We are beat by more than just AK. I would 3 bet pre but post is ok, maybe lead river pot ish but raising is a bluff really unless we cib. Potting river is fine.

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01-04-2010 , 10:59 AM

#20

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_chopchop

3b pf cause most villain will 4b AK

raise somewhere cause most players are opening a tonne of Ax hands on the button and we are ony beat by AK - so much value lost just playing c/c 3 st

lol, great reasoning.

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01-04-2010 , 11:07 AM

#21

Greco

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,564

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonitto

lol, great reasoning.

It's actually pretty solid. It means if he calls and we hit top pair we can be pretty confident we have tptk. ie the nuts

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01-04-2010 , 11:16 AM

#22

Tonitto

veteran

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greco

It's actually pretty solid. It means if he calls and we hit top pair we can be pretty confident we have tptk. ie the nuts

But this shouldn´t be a (main)reason to 3b. We are 3betting for value, so we think he calls w/ worse or folds small pp´s etc.

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01-04-2010 , 11:19 AM

#23

curly86

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 3,451

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle_chopchop

3b pf cause most villain will 4b AK

raise somewhere cause most players are opening a tonne of Ax hands on the button and we are ony beat by AK - so much value lost just playing c/c 3 st

3bet pre is prob fine here, but thats not a great reason to do it, equally lots of villains fold AJ

Also lots of hands other than AK beat us by the river

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01-04-2010 , 11:25 AM

#24

dragsy

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 494

Lets hypothetically say that the villain 4bets AK and folds all other As. If the villain is opening all Ax from the button 3betting isn't as good as flatting. Keeping dominated As in has a lot of value.

I don't think most unknowns bet this turn when checked to without a hand so c/c the flop lead the turn and river doesn't look like a bad line to me. We get value from draws, worse Ax and likely some Kx hands without giving a free card to draws. If the villain folds to a turn lead I doubt we were getting another bet anyway.

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01-04-2010 , 11:29 AM

#25

Greco

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,564

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonitto

But this shouldn´t be a (main)reason to 3b. We are 3betting for value, so we think he calls w/ worse or folds small pp´s etc.

we realise that value when we 3bet and he folds pre, or calls with his pps and folds to our cbet.

By 3betting AQ we actually somewhat eliminate the domination issue we often run into with Ak as it almost 100% of the time 4bets. This means when we do flop we can be pretty confident we have tptk

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