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Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot

12-08-2023 , 03:24 PM
So when I solved this spot, it was a call with optimized ranges. However, if I update the solution where Vill isn't doing this with AK ever, then it's a clear fold. Thoughts?


    Yatahay Network - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

    BB: $13.82 (276.4 bb)
    UTG: $5.00 (100 bb)
    CO: $11.37 (227.4 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $5.07 (101.4 bb)
    SB: $5.00 (100 bb)

    SB posts $0.02, BB posts $0.05

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has T K
    fold, CO raises to $0.16, Hero raises to $0.51, 2 folds, CO raises to $1.32, Hero calls $0.81

    Flop: ($2.71, 2 players) 2 T 5
    CO bets $2.03, Hero raises to $3.75 and is all-in, CO calls $1.72

    Turn: ($10.21, 2 players) A

    River: ($10.21, 2 players) 9

    Results: $10.21 pot ($0.35 rake)
    Final Board: 2 T 5 A 9

    CO shows Q Q: (One Pair, Queens)
    (Pre 68%, Flop 80%, Turn 89%)

    Hero shows T K: (One Pair, Tens)
    (Pre 32%, Flop 20%, Turn 11%)

    CO wins $9.70
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 03:34 PM
    Yes, you can solve as much as you want and cold call 4bets 100bb deep as you want: I bet the solver will not extract 1 dime out of you.

    A serious answer:
    I am too bad to have a flatting range after a 4bet. You must be really skilled to have such a thing.

    As played, you are making fun of me. Of course I would call my dear. Oh my dear. You, Lord, are so making of me!
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 05:19 PM
    CO opens 2.5BB, you 3bet 10BB in position -> very big size, on theory you force your opponent to 4bet or fold. Their 26BB 4bet is adequate, I wonder if you should really have a flatting range there. If it exists, KTs is probably a very rare flat, and at NL5 where your opponent will (in general) have a much stronger 4bet range than optimal I think you can pure fold your hand.

    As played you are not going anywhere on the flop.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 05:29 PM
    Wtf was I saying?

    a) No 4-bet-flatting range!
    b) I don't like the 3bet, but whatever. As long as you donks keep 3bet/calling this ****, we are cool.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 05:54 PM
    fold to the 4 bet.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 08:41 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bla
    a) No 4-bet-flatting range!
    b) I don't like the 3bet, but whatever. As long as you donks keep 3bet/calling this ****, we are cool.
    We should have a 4bet flatting range in most spots vs most sizings, and any suited broadway is an auto 3bet as BTN vs a CO open. If we're playing 3bet or fold any suited broadway is a pure 3bet, but if we want to have a calling range then we probably split all of them expect AQs+ 50/50 between 3bet and call

    Calling the 4bet here is pretty questionable though, I agree - in theory we would be calling a lot with KTs in this spot, because CO would be 4betting a range that includes a number of hands that KTs either dominates (QTs/JTs/K6s/K5s), or has clean equity against (AQo/AJo/99/88). So we're not thrilled to call but it's one of the 0 EV hands. In practice, there are virtually no 5nl players who have any idea what a theoretically correct 4b range looks like. They're going to be heavily weighted towards the JJ+,AK that would be the value portion of the theory range, but they're going to have very few of the bluffs, if any at all

    So OP, I think your first mistake was calling the 4b, but as played you should have been folding any flop that didn't give you two pair or a strong draw. Villain's flop sizing really leans towards them having a range that's just JJ+ and AhKh, so it's just a pure flop fold
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 09:39 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by whitemares
    We should have a 4bet flatting range in most spots vs most sizings, and any suited broadway is an auto 3bet as BTN vs a CO open. If we're playing 3bet or fold any suited broadway is a pure 3bet, but if we want to have a calling range then we probably split all of them expect AQs+ 50/50 between 3bet and call
    Well, I disagree with:
    1. "We should have a 4bet flatting range in most spots vs most sizings"
    2. "and any suited broadway is an auto 3bet as BTN vs a CO open"
    3. "If we're playing 3bet or fold any suited broadway is a pure 3bet,"

    Ummm... What can I say. Let me smoke a cigarette first.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 09:43 PM
    No. Actually I will smoke that cigarette later.

    There is nothing you are providing but exclamation marks!

    Why should we have a 4bet flatting range in most spots vs most sizings?
    Why is any suited broadway and auto 3bet BTN vs CO?
    Why #3?

    You see: I'm just question marks, and you are just exclamation marks!
    What a perfect fit!
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 09:47 PM
    #2 as a CO or any position, you can construct a perfect unexploitable 4bet/fold strategy. Don't know if you are aware of this.
    #2 answers #3.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 09:50 PM
    Still open: #1 Why should we have a 4bet flatting range in most spots vs most sizings?

    And that's what I'm most interested in.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-08-2023 , 10:00 PM
    Or is this because ONE solver says so and for instance flats AKs against a 35bb/100bb 4bet with 4.2% propability only, just because!!!!111

    (I hope it's not.)

    Last edited by bla; 12-08-2023 at 10:10 PM.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-09-2023 , 01:36 AM
    Hand just looks kinda std.

    Also wtf w this bla dude posting like 7 times in a row.

    Dude is def 70+ years old.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-09-2023 , 01:39 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BigBananas
    Hand just looks kinda std.

    Also wtf w this bla dude posting like 7 times in a row.

    Dude is def 70+ years old.
    Yeah, man, ..., dude, I mean, whatever, man.....

    Why is hand std, dude?

    And to point it to me as well: What's wrong with my reasoning, cool, young 12 years old dude?
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote
    12-09-2023 , 01:45 AM
    I mean: Really! This is the bit too much. Good bye, kids!
    Avg age: 22. Yeah well, I feel like 70+.
    Solver Approved Call in 4bet Pot Quote

          
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