Should we be barreling these spots against unknowns? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Should we be barreling these spots against unknowns?

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09-13-2010 , 01:01 AM

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (MP1): $28.81
MP2: $5.91
CO: $17.65
BTN: $48.79
SB: $19.02
BB: $10.00
UTG: $20.94
UTG+1: $18.56
UTG+2: $34.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP1 with J

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.75) 3

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.25, SB calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.25) 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($4.25) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero requests TIME, Hero folds

Villain is a complete unknown and had no stats on him. Should we be multi-barreling on these kinds of board textures against unknown players in the micro stakes? Should we even c-bet this flop if we dont plan to barrel?

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09-13-2010 , 01:10 AM

Lx12

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,160

I personally don't like bluffing unknowns - I'm actually genuinely interested to know an answer to this - I feel like this is the weakest facet of my game - these small pots.

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09-13-2010 , 01:12 AM

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lx12

I personally don't like bluffing unknowns - I'm actually genuinely interested to know an answer to this - I feel like this is the weakest facet of my game - these small pots.

Me too. I am really starting to think that bluffing AT ALL in the micros (and maybe higher) is unprofitable in the long run, EXCEPT for just your standard c-bet here and there.

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09-13-2010 , 01:18 AM

Lx12

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,160

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcole

Me too. I am really starting to think that bluffing AT ALL in the micros (and maybe higher) is unprofitable in the long run, EXCEPT for just your standard c-bet here and there.

Me too or maybe I'm just playing results. Read COTW on double barrelling

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09-13-2010 , 01:30 AM

DDAWD

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,879

I think it's a decent board to barrel on. If villain is floating with a pocket pair (or with nothing, just to see if you will DB), it's going to be hard for him to continue. If he's got a FD, he won't fold, but you could still be beating him if he doesn't have an ace and didn't make a pair. If he has a Q, it'll be real tough to get him to fold.

But it's tricky to do against an unknown. I personally wouldn't do it.

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09-13-2010 , 01:33 AM

Lx12

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,160

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDAWD

we shouldn't c-bet then right?

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09-13-2010 , 01:33 AM

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDAWD

2+2 should do a COTW on playing against unknown players. I am totally lost against them, especially at the micros

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09-13-2010 , 01:34 AM

Lx12

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,160

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcole

2+2 should do a COTW on playing against unknown players. I am totally lost against them, especially at the micros

Exactly what I just suggested to split

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09-13-2010 , 01:41 AM

DDAWD

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,879

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lx12

we shouldn't c-bet then right?

I think it's ok to cbet. I just go with the assumption that if they aren't folding on the flop, they aren't going to fold to any subsequent blanks.

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09-13-2010 , 05:19 AM

#10

chip-star

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,171

Cbet is fine, after he's called you should probably give up, it's not profitable bluffing unknowns at the micro's, especially given that his stack size suggests he's fishy.

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09-13-2010 , 05:26 AM

#11

pokerarb

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6,191

Turn not a good barrel card

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09-13-2010 , 06:52 AM

#12

vipeldeu

adept

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 920

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDAWD

I think it's ok to cbet. I just go with the assumption that if they aren't folding on the flop, they aren't going to fold to any subsequent blanks.

vs a totally unknown i agree.

but a lot of fish will give up on the second barrel when holding a pocket pair. they like peeling one card.

in this case, once we check the turn, i'm done with the hand.

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09-13-2010 , 07:46 AM

#13

zmaniac17

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 274

I wouldn't do it. Triple barreling an unknown with air is a risky proposition. You have to know that he's thinking to know he's capable of folding anything.

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09-13-2010 , 08:42 AM

#14

SI-KICK

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,354

i'd barrell a K or any diamond, but thats about it, well except for an Ace but thats like seriously ldo...

but then again i have a tendancy to value town myself in these spots vs villains of the non folding variety

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09-13-2010 , 09:30 AM

#15

juguerra

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,806

turn is a bad card to barrel.

well played, imo.

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09-13-2010 , 09:37 AM

#16

DamienT

banned

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,911

You should CB this flop because villain's range is often pretty wide (most players at micros certainly call too much in the blinds)

Turn isn't a good card to CB. I would just check.

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09-13-2010 , 10:26 AM

#17

OoLethaLoO

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6,851

vs an unknown KISS. keep it simple stupid. meaning the way you played it is fine. get some hands on a villain before you start double barreling air at all, Cbetting that board IP should be super standard. you can double i guess in super obvious spots, like 663r board and the turn is an A.

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09-13-2010 , 10:29 AM

#18

BarryLyndon

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,981

You bet this flop because you can most likely fold out 22 - 44 and you have the best hand a good % of the time. You don't bet the turn because it's a bad double barrel card and your FE + overall equity sucks.

Barry

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09-14-2010 , 01:08 AM

#19

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by SI-KICK

You'd barrel any diamond without a diamond in our hand? If that is what you meant, why is this? Do we expect him to call with many diamonds in his hand, and does the likelihood of that support a double on any diamond then?

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09-14-2010 , 05:28 AM

#20

Chuck Faldo

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 534

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lx12

Exactly what I just suggested to split

In his last cotw he suggested just treating them as loose-passive fish.

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09-14-2010 , 06:07 AM

#21

Teppec

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Faldo

In his last cotw he suggested just treating them as loose-passive fish.

That's a really good plan.

There are sometimes some very profitable bluff spots, even at micros, but I pretty much only do it if I have reads/information/history with a villain where I can more accurately put him on hand ranges while also being able to accurately rep something beating those hand ranges because of action/position/board texture.

Against an unknown, bluffing is just burning money.

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09-15-2010 , 01:03 AM

#22

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teppec

I think you are very right, just burning money! That sucks that is the case. How should we classify a bluff though; anything more than one barrel?

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09-15-2010 , 04:49 AM

#23

Teppec

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,934

I think of a bluff as usually betting with the specific intent of folding out better hands.

Also, bluffing in cash is a much different animal than bluffing in MTTs. There are alot more spots where bluffing is correct there because you can put pressure on people's stacks/tournament life and they can't just reload if they are wrong.

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09-15-2010 , 11:39 PM

#24

dcole

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 612

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teppec

In other words, you dont think we should even be making a good amount of c-bets when we miss the flop?

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09-16-2010 , 12:21 AM

#25

Teppec

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,934

Depends on the range of hands I put villain on. Sometimes cbets are for value even if we technically 'miss'.

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