Was playing while my freind played beside me and, when this hand came up, I mumbled "standard" or something to that effect, to which he replied, "guarantee you're never good there," which I felt was so untrue it was ridiculous. Villain is just typical bad, gets frustrated easily and has reraised pre with hands like K10 off and pkt 4's then checked down, this is 25 hands in based on the preflop and flop play, I felt I'd narrowed it down to 3 possibilities, two of which I beat. Any differing opinions?


Poker Stars $20.00+$1.00 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN/SB): t1750 M = 58.33
BB: t1250 M = 41.67

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with 6 5
Hero raises to t40, BB raises to t150, Hero calls t110

Flop: (t300) 5 T 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t300) 4 (2 players)
BB bets t150, Hero calls t150

River: (t600) 4 (2 players)
BB bets t950 all in, Hero calls t950

is this a brag post or something? if u think this is standard then u are a f idiot.

You know that KTo has you absolutely crushed here, right?

So do all villain's slowplays, as well as any flushdraws he decided to get frisky with after you checked behind the flop and a complete blank came on the turn.

This dispute probably cannot be settled here, because based just on the description you've given, I don't know that you are good often enough to call the overbet, which brings it all down to particulars of previous hands and gameflow, which you know and we don't.

But I really don't think calling is "standard" by any means, based on what you've said about villain.

its not standard and sometimes you are good here.

you are both wrong.


and lol @ "i had it narrowed down to 3 possibilities"

Sorry, the main factor in this is the 3bet checkdown frequency villain had displayed so far, based on the fact that everything i didn't bet and villain didn't pair (or possibly pick up a draw with) went to show down, the only hands I had in his shove range were A4, JQ+ or 67. By typical bad, it was meant that he would only over shove with hands he did not want to go to showdown, i.e. hands that could be beat. I took the full allotted time to make the call with the only non air hand in his range being A4. But bad or not, playing a flush on the turn and river that way or a 10, both seemed out of the picture imo.

fold pre

Part of the reason bad villains are bad is because they do things that don't make sense.

Trying to exclude hands from their range because they don't make sense is a little bit silly IMO.

Against a station like yourself I would actually most likely shove a flush, good ten and any four on the river - That would be standard. So yes, you narrowed my range down to three types of hands, none of which you have beat.

Sorry, maybe the best way to post this would have been;

Am I a fish???

Poker Stars $20.00+$1.00 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN/SB): t1750 M = 58.33
BB: t1250 M = 41.67

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with 6 5
Hero raises to t40, BB raises to t150, Hero calls t110

Flop: (t300) 5 T 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t300) 4 (2 players)
BB bets t150, Hero calls t150

River: (t600) 4 (2 players)
BB bets t950 all in, Hero calls t950

if he can have A4/67, i dont see why he cant have 43/54/64

and if he is always bluffing when he overshoves, the obviously call. but if he's always bluffing, he can't have A4. so where are we?

and yes this:

DO NOT ****IN FOLD PRE

8==>

this is it what
luchinini pourin from the sky
lets get rich what

I find it funny that he says it is "standard". It sounds like he took the chapter from Moshman's book that stated you're usually good with middle pair. Unfortunately, the f'ing book also said keep the pot low. Going all in on the river is absolutely stupid especially if you thought one of his possible hands was K10. Stupid call IMO and will bring -EV over the long run.

Yes, you are a fish.

I really don't mind the preflop call, especially when you say villain doesn't bet a board that he didn't hit (Assuming this since you say he checks down K10 or 44 after raising pre). We hit a ton of flops with a hand like this, and our outs are typically clean. We can justify a ton of shippage flops. Effective stacks are relatively deep, and blinds are low.

The river is definitely not standard. If villain hasn't been stabbing at missed boards, I see even more of a reason for him to be shoving the near nuts on the river here often enough for this not to be a profitable call. My assumptions are also based on villain being a fish.

In my experiences bad players typically pot barrel a draw on a flop after 3betting (and snap the shove by you). The fact that he actually checks the flop/turn scares me more than it comforts me. A ton of bad players think they are being tricky by waiting til the river to make any moves then overbetting to induce a weak call and thus lose a ton of value the majority of the time. Sure, he will bluff sometimes. But just b/c you picked off a bluff here doesn't make this WP.

I think his call was bad here given the villain reads BUT I think to completely say it is a bad call wouldn't be accurate. There are times when calls like these are imo +EV. I just feel this is not one of them.

The biggest thing that concerns me about his post is his using the word "standard" to indicate the river action.

"Standard" is not part of the discussion. The dispute was that I was never good here. I mumbled that to relieve some disgust at the river play and annoy my friend. Obviously calling a 3x pot shove with middle pair on a super drawy board and with the preflop action is in no way standard.
The original conversation was that I felt I was good enough of the time here to call with the way the match had gone to this point.

Then like I said, you're asking people to resolve your dispute who cannot possibly resolve it, because based on what you've said about villain, I can't see you being good nearly often enough to call the river shove.

But you have data we don't, data that is next to impossible to convey to anyone but yourself. Without that data, calling looks pretty bad, but I could see it maybe being ok under the right circumstances.

Basically, we can't soulread villain for you, so stop asking us to.

Oh yeah, and definitely don't fold pre. That would be uber-nitty against somebody who is happy to check down when he misses.

I guess if the "dispute" is whether you're *ever* good here, then you didn't need to post, because you obviously were good. If what you really want to know is whether calling is generally going to be +EV or not, then the answer is most likely going to be no, without having a soulread on villain at that particular moment in time.

I do think you've narrowed villains range WAY further than you should have though. I don't see any way you can possibly get a solid enough read in 24 hands to say he only has 3 possibilities here. Especially since 22, 55, and TT could all very easily be in his range based on the fact that you saw him 3bet 44.

Pretty much this ^^

Using works like *never* or *ever* in Poker is like asking us a philosophical question which cannot be answered. Obv you'll be good there at some point. The relevant question is "is this a profitable line" which apparently is not part of the question to begin with.

Close thread imo.

This is pretty much my feeling on the hero call exactly

I don't agree in a vaccuum and/or against most players.

One of the beauties of minraising is that you don't give up much to 3-bets unless villain makes them a lot.

i crimson

Pre defense is fine. Villain is really bad, OOP, and has a non-nutted range. We have a very playable hand, it's not like we're defending K4o.

As for river, Hero calls obv aren't standard. some reasons to hero call given board and action. Nice read, NH.

Things to consider for hero call: Can he play a T like this. Does he ever play overpairs like this. Does he ever chk flop with FD. Would he 1/2 pot turn w/ a 4? If you're answering these questions with no given your reads then snap him off. He's polarized and doesn't get to the river w/ a nutted hand given action very often = alot of air.

So what are the "only" 3 possibilities ? Flushes,A3 for wheel on turn,54,24 mby,some slowplayed TT/22/55,44,JJ+ sometimes if he slowplays them on the flop or was going for c/r and enough bad players go for it, 67 and some air? Not to mention he 3bet KT and 44 and didn't bet the flop,so from what you know he isn't stabbing in 3bet pots.