Rush 10NL -- AA deep, opponent smoothcalls 4bet - Page 2 - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Rush 10NL -- AA deep, opponent smoothcalls 4bet

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01-20-2010 , 03:25 PM

#26

notmyusername

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 557

Quote:

Originally Posted by axel_nld

ranges.

That affects how happy about calling we'd be, but it doesn't affect the fact that, if our hand is good 1/3 of the time or more when one PSB goes in post-flop, folding is ridiculous.

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01-20-2010 , 03:48 PM

#27

absolutefish

BBV champion

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,826

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligic

This is a 5bet pot, and we have just about a psb left.

ya, dis is da 5bet pot.!!!!!

bet arr in

Quote

01-20-2010 , 07:43 PM

#28

Blaaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,853

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmyusername

Effective stacks for this hand started at 273bbs -- but 80bbs from each stack went in preflop, leaving the effective stack (i.e., the amount that can be won) at around 190bbs and the pot at about 160bbs. By putting a ton of money in preflop relative to the effective stacks here, it's like you increased the blinds to 80bbs. So postflop, with only 1.3ish pot-sized bet left in your stacks, you have the same strategic advantage that a shortstack has on a deep table -- stacking off with top pair is not only correct, but folding it would be a huge mistake. This is because your opponent is getting 2.3 to 1 on their call, and if they have any piece of the board they have to call you. Contrast this situation to if you limped, and the pot was 3bbs with 270bbs left in the stack. There, your opponent would be an idiot to call a shove with anything less than the nuts or near nuts.

This is not the same situation at all because people will call down a pot sized shove on the flop really light from a shortstacker and their range for calling preflop will be much wider too. I mean, if a shortstack would raise pre and I'd flat QQ for some reason I'd call his shove on this board, but no way I am calling a shove here with QQ as villain.

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01-20-2010 , 07:49 PM

#29

Dumuzi

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,621

we have the pot left and the turn can kill our action gogogo

Quote

01-20-2010 , 07:51 PM

#30

notmyusername

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 557

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaaz

Then you made a mistake calling off half your stack preflop, IMO. You only need 36% equity to make a flop call necessary. The ranges are definitely different, though. I agree.

Quote

01-20-2010 , 08:27 PM

#31

indianboy44

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 601

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmyusername

Then you made a mistake calling off half your stack preflop, IMO. You only need 36% equity to make a flop call necessary. The ranges are definitely different, though. I agree.

lol weren't you the one that made up the hypothetical? Odds just measure how much equity you need to play profitably against a given range - you can't compare this 5b pot to any situation that gets you to a flop with the same odds...

Once hero CB flop and K

turn gets checked to him, what are your guys' lines?

Quote

01-20-2010 , 08:29 PM

#32

notmyusername

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 557

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianboy44

turn gets checked to him, what are your guys' lines?

Do you understand why shortstacks have a strategic advantage in some situations? Do you also understand why 3- and 4-bet pots are analogous to that strategic advantage in that you can profitably play for stacks with much weaker hands? That's all I'm trying to say here.

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01-20-2010 , 08:43 PM

#33

Blaaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,853

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmyusername

Then you made a mistake calling off half your stack preflop, IMO. You only need 36% equity to make a flop call necessary. The ranges are definitely different, though. I agree.

Im not gonna turn this into a how to play qq deep discussion but even if you were right the truth is that, whether its a mistake or not, pretty much everyone at these stakes will fold qq to a shove after taking this line pre

Quote

01-20-2010 , 09:02 PM

#34

mygibbs

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,268

Quote:

Originally Posted by gateswi

Out of curiosity is some of this for balance reasons

It's because you don't need to bet bigger because you can get stacks in anyways / you want him to spew / pseudo thin value.

The smaller the SPR, the less you have to bet on the flop.

Quote

01-21-2010 , 02:06 PM

#35

saultnutz

centurion

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmyusername

That affects how happy about calling we'd be, but it doesn't affect the fact that, if our hand is good 1/3 of the time or more when one PSB goes in post-flop, folding is ridiculous.

you are both right - the only action is allin due to the SPR, but the situations are analytically not the same, ie the EV of getting allin is positive in both situations but not the same.

the villians range will be completely different in a 4 bet pot than a raised pot v a shorty

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