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Running bad need advice... Running bad need advice...

01-13-2010 , 02:06 AM
I am running really, really bad. Long story short I usually play FR games and ground on FT up to 5nl on FR. Came over to PS and made a small deposit and decided I would grind up again.

This time however I decided to play more SH since I could get in more hands. Well needless to say I am running horrible at 6-max on stars. I am running -12bb/100 right now and every time I look through my session I don't see anything glaringly wrong.

Today I played thinking "maybe I have been too loose hmm I will just tighten up my game a bit simple enough". When I tighten my game I find myself "going like broomcorn's uncle".

Bad players raise and reraise everywhere it makes calling and seeing a flop well painful. They fire multiple bullets its like everyone is Tom Dwan. If I play back and get aggressive they simply call down and profit.

I am not playing back light at them or bluffing. I am straight forward value betting and playing pots sized for my relative hand strength. If this keeps up I will be busto.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:08 AM
1.) admit you know nothing about poker.
2.) learn.
3.) ????
4.) profit.
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01-13-2010 , 02:10 AM
How many hands..you could just be on a big cooler atm, post your stats (details) with vpip etc and ask for advice. The only thing I can say for now is try not to bluff as much in the micros try and have a hand at showdown.
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01-13-2010 , 02:17 AM
I don't bluff at all... On PS I am running 20/7 and I have put in about 1,200 hands (very small I know) at 6-max on PS. My biggest losses are in the BB with big hands value bet etc. Sets gets beat by runner runner etc.

My WTSD is 23 atm.
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01-13-2010 , 02:19 AM
even though i don't play 6max, and it's a minscule sample size, 20/7 is pretty lolbad.

calling/limping too much and not raising enough = ??? = not profit
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01-13-2010 , 02:19 AM
1200 hands is like absolutely nothing.
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01-13-2010 , 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth
I don't bluff at all... On PS I am running 20/7 and I have put in about 1,200 hands (very small I know) at 6-max on PS. My biggest losses are in the BB with big hands value bet etc. Sets gets beat by runner runner etc.

My WTSD is 23 atm.
im dead serious. stop whining and admit you know nothing about poker. that is the best mindset you can have.
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01-13-2010 , 02:25 AM
If I could I would post the simple overview of my recent sessions hand wise. I am not getting hands worth raising (unless anyone is raising KTo UTG in 6-max). My limps are usually in position with moderate holdings no one folds to my raises so I don't 98s etc on the BTN.

helpwanted0 - yes as I have said I am well aware that 1,200 hands is a very small sample. That doesn't change that fact the running bad has a very large impact in relation to that sample.
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01-13-2010 , 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mao
im dead serious. stop whining and admit you know nothing about poker. that is the best mindset you can have.
The title of the thread was "running bad need advice" the need advice portion would indicate I don't know.
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01-13-2010 , 02:28 AM
if you're playing 6max like FR (which you seem to be since this is posted here) thats what you're doing wrong.
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01-13-2010 , 02:32 AM
im saying you shouldn't even care about running bad at the micros. you should spend all that time getting better, if you don't think anything is wrong, you aren't thinking hard enough.

if you are playing 20/7 i would highly suggest starting from the ground up. read galfonds article on range, really really digest it, then learn basic fundamental preflop skills. all of this stuff is readily available, have to walk before we can run.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mao
im saying you shouldn't even care about running bad at the micros. you should spend all that time getting better, if you don't think anything is wrong, you aren't thinking hard enough.

if you are playing 20/7 i would highly suggest starting from the ground up. read galfonds article on range, really really digest it, then learn basic fundamental preflop skills. all of this stuff is readily available, have to walk before we can run.
link?
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01-13-2010 , 02:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth
If I could I would post the simple overview of my recent sessions hand wise. I am not getting hands worth raising (unless anyone is raising KTo UTG in 6-max). My limps are usually in position with moderate holdings no one folds to my raises so I don't 98s etc on the BTN.

helpwanted0 - yes as I have said I am well aware that 1,200 hands is a very small sample. That doesn't change that fact the running bad has a very large impact in relation to that sample.
Dude, admit that you aren't very good and try and learn. You should rarely even play KTo from UTG and when you do definitely should be raising. I never open-limp, if its not strong enough to raise for value than I just dump it.

You aren't raising to get people to fold either, you are raising for value. You should be happy that people are calling your raises with crap hands.
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01-13-2010 , 02:44 AM
g-bucks from bluff mag. http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazin...alfond-985.htm

basically EV, but its not easy to get into the right mindset all the time. you really should be thinking in terms of ranges always.

but it shouldn't discourage you if you can't yet, its def not easy, but it NEEDS to be your goal.
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01-13-2010 , 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigante
Dude, admit that you aren't very good and try and learn. You should rarely even play KTo from UTG and when you do definitely should be raising. I never open-limp, if its not strong enough to raise for value than I just dump it.

You aren't raising to get people to fold either, you are raising for value. You should be happy that people are calling your raises with crap hands.
Yes I am aware that raising is to build the pot. You misread me I don't open KTo UTG. I was saying that to illustrate that I am card dead and thats what I am getting or worst.

ps - I presume that everyone who makes their way to these forums and reads and posts and analyzes his/her own gameplay is here to improve.

Last edited by daggermouth; 01-13-2010 at 02:52 AM. Reason: post script
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01-13-2010 , 02:50 AM
Ah, i see what you are saying. Then my advice is to not let being card dead affect the way you play. Have no emotions, just go for the optimal play in every situation. The cards will fall your way once again. 1200 hands is nothing.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mao
g-bucks from bluff mag. http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazin...alfond-985.htm

basically EV, but its not easy to get into the right mindset all the time. you really should be thinking in terms of ranges always.

but it shouldn't discourage you if you can't yet, its def not easy, but it NEEDS to be your goal.
Thinks for the link, Yes I attempted to read this when I first started trying to improve back in late Oct but it was over my head at the time.

I had forgotten about it completely so hopefully now I can take something away from it.
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01-13-2010 , 02:56 AM
Hey, i know that you say your playing your cards right but i assumed the same , and i am not a fantastic poker player i broke it right down to the basics. This might help if you follow it for a while almost exactly and might help improve your Pre-Flop game. It is helping me.

I got this from another Post on this site, and i dont remember the original poster so i hope this isnt a problem but here you are:

Part I: why you need this guide.

Because you suck at poker. No matter how good you play, the stupid fish keep beating you and you're banging your head against the wall in frustration. You shove TPTK and get called by a set. So the next time you take a pot control line and miss 80bb of value against TPNK. No matter what you do it seems you're being thwarted. You have too many leaks to pick one out and adjust, and need to start from the basics.

This guide is not going to show you the best way to beat 2nl. It is not going to beat 2nl for the most money. What it will do is strip away all your leaks, and give you a foundation to start winning in the games. And if you're at least breakeven you then have time - time to add to your game as you grow organically as a player.


Part II: starting hand selection.

STOP PLAYING SO MANY HANDS!

Playing a lot of hands is what you do when you are an excellent player with a large edge over the competition. You can't beat 2nl, so stop giving yourself more opportunities to lose! We're going to drastically pare back the hands you play in order to attempt to give you such a huge card edge in the pots you enter, that your skill differential doesn't matter.

In addition, the rake is egregious at 2nl on FTP. Reducing your exposure to the rake (by reducing the hands you play) will up you winrate by 1 or 2 bb/100 immediately, even without factoring in improvements in your game. Stop paying the rake for the rest of the table. Let them have fun and push chips all over the place and pay FTP for the right to do it. You're just going to sit back and watch all this going on, entering pots with monsters only, and picking up your share of that money flying around.

First off, bet sizing. Every preflop raise you make should be 4bb, plus 1bb for every limper (or poster). Every. Single. Time. If you are the first person into the pot, $0.08. If there is one limper, $0.10. Two limpers, $0.12. Same size, every time.

Now then, what hands should you play? I'm going to break it down by position: by EP I mean the first two position after the BB, UTG and UTG+1. By MP I mean the next two positions after EP. By LP I mean the two position after MP, the HJ and CO. I will treat the BU as its own thing. And the last category is in the blinds, SB and BB.

An unopened pot is one where no one has raised before its your turn to act. For the purposes of hand selection you will ignore limpers; zero limpers or seven, the only difference that will make is your bet size, that is an unopened pot and you will open it, with a raise with the same selection of cards.

From EP: TT+, AK

Yeah, that's it. Yes, really fold AQ. Learn to fold.

From MP: 77+, AK, AQ, AJs

Don't play pots out of position. If you must play out of position, make sure you range crushes the range of anyone who calls your bet. Make the game easy.

From LP: 44+, AJ+, A9s+, KQ

From BU: any pair, AT+, A8s+, JTs+, QTs+, KTs, KQo, KJo

Play hands in position and they will be easier to play. remember, we're not choosing an optimal way to play, we're choosing a way to play that will make you +EV and make all your decision easy, thus giving you time to find the optimal way to play.

From the blinds: same as from EP

Only raise super-premiums from out of position. Also, do not limp from the SB. If you're not beating 2nl you certainly shouldn't be playing mediocre hands OOP in multi-way pots. Just consider your SB limping privileges revoked. If you're playing, you're raising.

This is not going to be fun, it is going to be boring, and it is going to be profitable.

Now that we've covered what to do in unopened pots, what do you do when you're facing a raise? Fold. Basically. There are two exceptions: your are 3betting, or you are setmining.

What should you 3bet with? QQ+ and AK. If you are in LP or BU and the raise did not come from EP you will also 3bet with JJ, TT, and AQs. How much to 3bet? 4x the raise size. No, this is not optimal. But stop worrying about balancing your range and balancing your betsize for your range. Your opponents at 2nl will call too much, and we want to take advantage of that for value. So raise 4x, plus another 1x for each coldcaller of the raise.

If you 3bet and are facing a 4bet you have an easy choice. If their PFR is under 6, fold everything but aces. If higher (or unknown) fold everything but AA and KK. Yes, that means QQ and AK too. If you're not folding, shove. Now.

If there is a raise and a 3bet before you act, similarly you have a simple choice. If the PFR of the 3better is <6%, or if their 3bet is 3% or less, fold everything but AA and KK, and raise those. If their PFR is 7+% or their 3bet is 4+%, also 4bet with QQ and AK. If you 4bet, you are calling the shove. If called, shove any flop.

What should you setmine with? Any pocket pair facing a raise (that you aren't 3betting) you can call and setmine with. Before you do, quick, check the raiser's stack size. Do they have 20x the bet size in thier stack? Yes, go ahead. No, fold. Do not setmine without odds.

Following these preflop guidlines should put you in the neighborhood of 8/7. This will smoosh what you pay in rake, and it will ensure that nearly every time you enter a pot you do it with the best cards, and you will predominately be in position postflop.


Part III: the flop.

Since you were the preflop raiser and have initiative, let’s talk cbetting. Oh, but first, let’s get out of the way the only time you don’t have initiative: you were set mining.

Did you hit your set? If not, then check and fold at the first opportunity. If yes and you are bet into, raise. The only time you shouldn't raise with your set is if the board is dry (no straights, zero or one broadway cards, no flushdraw) and the villain has a high AF, say 3 or more. Then you can call. Otherwise, click that little “pot” button, and get some chips in the pot. If you are not bet into, bet yourself. How much? Pot, obviously.

Speaking of that pot button, it is your new best friend. You are reading this because you aren’t beating 2nl, so you are likely to make serious mistakes in betsizing. So until you know what, why, and how to vary your bet sizes, ever bet and raise you make will be pot sized. Got that? All bets and raises will be pot sized, including cbets. Again, yes this is not optimal. But we are tailoring your game to enter pots with a strong edge in hand strength, and you are playing a game where you opponents major leak is calling too much, so let’s run with it. Pot sized bets, and pot sized raises, every time.

Now then, with set mining out of the way, you should have initiative every time. When should you cbet?

* if you have a set or two pair
* if you have an overpair to the flop
* if you have top pair
* if you have a nut flush draw (NFD) or an open ended nut straight draw (OESD)
* if you have second pair
* if the board is favorable for cbetting

For the purposes of this guide, I will consider a PP with only one overcard on the board to be “second pair” If you miss, you can still cbet if the board contains and A or K and zero or one other broadway cards, or if the board is monotone. Other than that, check and fold. Yes, check and fold your whiffed AK.

If you are called, proceed to part IV: the turn. If you are raised, fold. The only exceptions to the fold rule are as follows:

* if you have a set
* if you have AA, KK, QQ, or JJ as an overpair and villain has less than 50bb in their stack
* if you have AA or KK as an overpair and villain has an AF of 4 or greater.
* if you have a NFD or OESD and villain has [u]either[u] <50bb in their stack or an AF >4

Other than that, fold if your cbet is raised. If those criteria are met, go ahead and 3bet.

Yes, you are going to have a flop AF damned close to infinity. And yes, once again its not ideal, but it will work. Remember, pot size for all bets and raises.


Part IV: the turn.

The turn is hard. We’re going to try and simplify if as much as possible.

If you bet the flop, and on the turn you have TPTK or better, continue firing. Otherwise shut down.

If you are bet into, ask yourself if a FD or SD filled on the turn. If so, fold. If not, call with TPTK or better and fold worse. If you have a set or better when you are bet into, raise. If you have a FD or OESD when bet into, call if you are getting 3:1 or better, otherwise fold.

If you are raised on the turn, fold unless you have a set, or neither a FD or SD filled on the turn, you can continue with AA or KK as an overpair so long as they have <50bb left in their stack.


Part V: the river.

OK, let’s keep you out of trouble. If the flopped FD came in, check and fold. I’m completely serious. If a flopped FD missed and you have TP or second pair, check and call. If the flop was paired and they called 2 streets, check and fold. If there is 4 to a straight on the board, check and fold. If a flopped FD missed and you have TP or second pair, check and call.

Otherwise, put in one bet or one call with TPTK if there are 0 or 1 other broadway cards on the board. Put in one bet or call with any overpair, any 2pair, any set. If you have a straight or flush or boat, then bet or raise only. You can fold pretty much anything less than a set if facing anything more than a minraise to your bet on the river.

Other than that, just try to use your head. The river is the one place where you can “break” the rules. If you want to make a valuebet but if feels kinda thin, go ahead and bet less than pot (but not less than ˝ pot). Even though I said fold if the flush comes in, just call anyway if they shove their last 12bb in an 80bb pot. Fold if they overbet the river even with top two pair. Try to get to SD if you have a decent hand, but try to stay out of trouble too. Basically, I’m too lazy to cover every river situation, so be deliberate and think it through, but play it by ear.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigante
Ah, i see what you are saying. Then my advice is to not let being card dead affect the way you play. Have no emotions, just go for the optimal play in every situation. The cards will fall your way once again. 1200 hands is nothing.
I think thats it that is what I don't know/have not adjusted for...

Question in regards to seeking optimal play when at a 6-max table what do you do when you are card dead. FR patience is king and I can wait seemingly forever in some instances. I think I panic 6-max after 20 orbits or so with no real hands.

Its because at that point I feel like every hand I play is to catch back up.
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01-13-2010 , 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth

ps - I presume that everyone who makes their way to these forums and reads and posts and analyzes his/her own gameplay is here to improve.
Yeah but you also seem to be "presuming" that you can just jump into 6max using the same effective strategy that worked at FR and be an immediate winner. All i'm saying is recognize you have leaks rather than bemoaning the fact you are card dead. From my experience 6 max is much more aggressive and a 20/7 style probably won't serve you too well.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth
I think thats it that is what I don't know/have not adjusted for...

Question in regards to seeking optimal play when at a 6-max table what do you do when you are card dead. FR patience is king and I can wait seemingly forever in some instances. I think I panic 6-max after 20 orbits or so with no real hands.

Its because at that point I feel like every hand I play is to catch back up.
watch some vids / read some stuff. 20/7 is never going to be able to win, you have major preflop leaks, which lead to major postflop leaks.

why does it matter if you're getting cards or not. you getting cards or not does not change the expected value of your next decision, which is all that matters.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigante
From my experience 6 max is much more aggressive and a 20/7 style probably won't serve you too well.
So LAG instead of TAG at the micros for 6-max?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mao
watch some vids / read some stuff. 20/7 is never going to be able to win, you have major preflop leaks, which lead to major postflop leaks.

why does it matter if you're getting cards or not. you getting cards or not does not change the expected value of your next decision, which is all that matters.
20/7 isn't my normal vpip/pfr thats strangely how I have been running on PS at 6-max. However I see your point that I am over limping too many hands.
Running bad need advice... Quote
01-13-2010 , 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth
I am running really, really bad. Long story short I usually play FR games and ground on FT up to 5nl on FR. Came over to PS and made a small deposit and decided I would grind up again.

This time however I decided to play more SH since I could get in more hands. Well needless to say I am running horrible at 6-max on stars. I am running -12bb/100 right now and every time I look through my session I don't see anything glaringly wrong.

Today I played thinking "maybe I have been too loose hmm I will just tighten up my game a bit simple enough". When I tighten my game I find myself "going like broomcorn's uncle".

Bad players raise and reraise everywhere it makes calling and seeing a flop well painful. They fire multiple bullets its like everyone is Tom Dwan. If I play back and get aggressive they simply call down and profit.

I am not playing back light at them or bluffing. I am straight forward value betting and playing pots sized for my relative hand strength. If this keeps up I will be busto.
It doesn't sound like you're doing anything right.

Step 1. Dispose of super system. Forget as much as possible about what you read with the exception of pot odds and other basic math.

Step 2. Read the faq at the top of the forum. The advice available in the faq is great and goes beyond 5nl and anything ever written in super system in terms of usefulness.
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01-13-2010 , 03:13 AM
Man this thread is epic already.
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01-13-2010 , 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daggermouth
So LAG instead of TAG at the micros for 6-max?
I don't think there is any cookie cutter answer, there are probably people that are successful with both.

I think for 6 max you just have a lot less room for error regardless of your style, so you just want to play really solid poker.
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