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River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill?

01-12-2019 , 04:27 AM
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (CO): 105 BB
BTN: 319.5 BB (VPIP: 20.63, PFR: 18.40, 3Bet Preflop: 1.79, Hands: 130)
SB: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 21.12, PFR: 16.89, 3Bet Preflop: 4.72, Hands: 309)
BB: 108 BB (VPIP: 46.30, PFR: 28.30, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
UTG: 37 BB (VPIP: 24.11, PFR: 16.07, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 113)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Standard 3x raise. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) A 5 K
SB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, SB calls 5 BB

In a vacuum, I'm checking 90% of the time. However this guy has folded to 8 out of 9 Cbets out of his 309 hands. Not a huge sample size, but definitely enough know that I'm auto-profiting by Cbetting ATC. If he calls, I know I'm probably behind to AJo-ATo, AJs-A2s, 55, or possibly KQ at the lower end of his calling range.

Turn: (17 BB, 2 players) 3
SB checks, Hero checks

The turn changes nothing. I can't rep the straight. An A will certainly call one more street. Betting seems largely -EV whereas checking is slightly +EV with my 2 outter.

River: (17 BB, 2 players) Q
SB bets 9.5 BB, Hero raises to 97 BB and is all-in, fold

At this point, I decided to turn this hand into a bluff for 2 reasons:

I realized his range is capped -- He is unlikely to show down AA-QQ, AQ or AK as those would have 3bet pre. Nor is he likely to have JT, as he wouldn't call the flop with a gutter with such a high fold to Cbet%.

I've been well behaved with him in the past without making any wild, unorthodox plays. My image is that of a TAG to him. By jamming, I believe I can make him lay down his A2s and A5s, as the nutted hands are still in my range.

This leaves him with only 55 -- a very small fraction of his range. By shoving here, I'm laying him a minimum defense frequency of 22% against my bluff, which is much, much less than I think he's capable of calling in this spot facing this much pressure with a capped range.

Even though this tactic worked, I can't help but wonder if the shove was a bit of overkill. Would a more conservative raise size have been appropriate?

Hero shows 7 7 (One Pair, Sevens)

Hero wins 34.5 BB
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-12-2019 , 05:09 AM
Of course the shove is overkill.

Since you've come to splash about I'd bet the turn with the intention of jamming clean rivers. You're not trying to rep improvement. You're saying you had it on the flop and you still have it and he can't have it. Brick cards are good for the polarised range.

In comparison I think the river is a worse card for you because it turns some of his one pair into 2 pair and you didn't bet turn repping hands which beat 2p so personally I'd fold but if you want to go for it then no need to 10x.
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-12-2019 , 12:25 PM
bad play
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-13-2019 , 04:56 AM
Pre is fine,I'd be tempted to go 2.5x if anything. We're gonna get 3b wider from CO, and pocket pairs can't call 3b profitably, so might be tempted to save 0.5bb, obviously with whole range.

Flop is a bit close, we miss it badly and villain has plenty of weak Ax and a few Kx in his range, and 55. I'd be tempted to check behind with a view to folding to turn bets if we don't improve.

Turn, our range is capped by the check. Yes his of range is capped as he 3bs aa kk ak etc pre, but we're not worried about this range, We're only considering his flop cbet calling range, which can still have ax and kx and 55 in. His check is completely procedural (check to the previous agressor) so his flop call range is uncapped. Our check is not procedural, and caps our range. The nutted hands we have are gonna continue betting here (aa, kk, ak, 55, a5), so by checking we tell villain we don't have these (or very rarely, this isn't a player to slowplay. He is straightforward reg, maybe on the passive side judging by 3b,but not enough info to be 100% certain).

So on the river, after our range capping check and due to the fact that he can have plenty of Ax, some Kx and A5/55, It's a clear b/f. Bad place to bluff as explained, unless he suspects slowplaying, hes not gonna call and has plenty of high value hands. Work out the pot odds, we need this to work a huge proportion of the time (reraise is way too big btw) for it to be profitable, and it never is. Balancing these river raise spots is tricky, but a this isn't a spot to bluff imo.
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-13-2019 , 10:13 AM
So bad. 100% a - ev play.
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-13-2019 , 06:34 PM
About the hand:

My pre sizing is 2.2x as CO. SB is flatting, he seems to be a tight-reggy player. His range could be smaller pocket pairs, suited connectors, some suited A-xs(A-10s- I think), suited and unsuited broadways, and some random suited cards like K-9s, Q-8s, etc.(on lower limits opponents like more to flat as SB with random suited hands like HC-xs).

On the flop it's a clear cbet for me. There are cards in his range we are ahead of(pp-s, suited connectors, hand like j-8s, etc.), and it's a clear protection value bet for me. If we check on the flop, then we wouldn't capable to defend our pair against probes on the turn. For me my cbet sizing is the question, but I will make another post about that below. I would use 35-40% cbet size here. We bet 2/3 pot, and he called. It seems he has TPWK, or 2ndGK, he could have set of 5-s too, probably he is folding bottom pairs against that sizing. Calling J10-QJ against that bigger cbet sizing would be still OK and std, but I am not sure that he calls with that cards.

On the blanky turn he checks and we check behind. Ok.

On the river he bets around 60% of the pot, it seems to be a valuebet. His value-betting range is 2 pair+and 55 sets, but he could valuebet against our line with a single TP. I think that the J-10 nut straight is in his range too. Against that cards we are showing big strength, and I think that it will work against this tight player on this limit, he could fold 2 pairs, because opponents on the lower limits do not think in ranges. Our turn check was weak, so we only representing J-10. . . I wouldn't play this line, it's just two much risk against a player, who is tight, he seems strong on this river. They don't like folding strong hands, 2 pair + hand(which is probably his min. valuebetting-range on the river).

I would cbet around 40%, which would give me profit, and after that just would try to go showdown, and would fold against probes if my cards wouldn't improve.
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-13-2019 , 06:54 PM
MY QUESTION:

I played spin and gos and some tourneys in the last 2 years, I played cash games in the past, but I could say that I am a new guy in the cash game field. In spin and gos and tourneys we mostly used 33% cbet. I have read a good post about cbetting mistakes in tournaments recently on Upswing Poker written by the world class player Nick Petroangelo, which was about the sizing on this kind of boards. Most of the tour regs still use 33% cbet size on close to all of the boards, which he says is a big mistake. On boards like A-J-low, K-J-low, etc. we have a big range advantage, and with a bigger sizing we could make our opponent fold bp-s, maybe weak 2ndpairs!(on that kind of texture-s he(and the solvers) recommends to bet 100% of the pot!).

That is a really good article, I recommend you guys to read it! But it's for tourneys.

My question is that "Does the same strategy work in cash games too??" What would be our right sizing/strategy on this kind of textures? (H-H-L)

I really use to, and like cbetting 33-40% of the pot, because it gives me auto profit, and doesn't tell any special about my current range. I can use this sizing with my bluff profitable. (of course I use bigger sizing on drawheavy boards.). I would cbet around 40% with 77 on A-K-x here too.
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote
01-14-2019 , 06:22 AM
x back flop, you're going to have Kx and few baby Ax that x back as well so 77 is safe when he leads turns
if he folds to cb a lot, don't cbet 100%, instead add a lot more bluffs. it's only when you run out of bluffs that you can dip into the showdown value part of your range and bet the weakest sdv combos. you still want a check ing range that makes sense. i.e. no reason to bet K6s is there?

river is very bad
River Bluff Shove -- Was It Overkill? Quote

      
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