i get the logic behind this rule. villain could have AK, JJ, QQ so you have to call the 4bet shove right? makes sense in really aggressive 6max games, higher limit games, tournaments, or if you're facing an all in from a short-medium stack.

but in 9ring cash, with two 100bb stacks the dynamic seems totally different, at least at NL25 it does. When two 100bb stacks go in preflop it is almost ALWAYS KK vs AA. i honestly can't even remember a time when i had KK, 3bet...got 4bet shoved and the villain DIDN'T have AA in his hand when we were both 100bb deep. Ever. (at NL25 fullring cash).

So today I get KK on the button. UTG raises...3people call. i 3bet it to like 20bb....UTG just SNAP shoves. I mean instant, and i'm like 90% sure he has AA but i remembered the no fold KK rule: "oh yea, only fish fold KK, i have to call, he might have QQ!!!" sure enough, AA.....

i'd venture to say that when a deepstack 4bet shoves at this level it is AA, at least 75% of the time if not more. I've noticed that when ppl have QQ they play it real cautious and either flat a 3bet or 4bet really really light. Rarely ever do I see people insta-jamming 100bb relative stacks with QQ......

so if it's AA 75% of the time i get jammed, it's actually +EV in the long run to fold KK in this spot AT THIS LEVEL, in full ring at least (no one is 100bb shoving a bluff in NL25, i've never seen it happen). cuz it's definitely NOT a situation where it's 50% he has QQ, 50% he has AA....it's more like 75% AA and 25% QQ if not lower. especially if the guy's really nitty.

in other words, i think that "rule" doesn't apply to all situations. especially nitty full ring games where people play hands in really obvious ways.

ok, i'm ready for this post to get ripped apart

in before the trolling starts

Always calling with KK preflop with 100bb is a much much much MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller mistake than folding KK preflop when you have the best hand. I don't play much full ring so I can't give you great advice here. Maybe if you're the BB and it goes raise, re-raise, re-raise, all-in, and you have no money in then you can fold. If you've already 3bet you have far too much invested to consider folding.

but everytime i put the guy on AA and that's what he has. literally. this isn't even like a joke, i've never run KK into QQ when both of us were 100bb deep relative at this level, it's always AA.

in a tournament, no i'm never folding it. in 6max, no because those games are laggy as hell. at higher limits, i'm sure i'll have to follow the no-fold rule. but fullring NL25 is pretty nitty and when they jam 100bb it's always AA or KK....at least on the site i play on it is.

and keep in mind i'm talking about two 100bb stacks. if i'm up against some 50bb guy of course i'm calling, he could be jamming a much wider range. but the deepstacks, like i said, they don't jam QQ hardly EVER, especially with nitty stats. they just don't, all the nits play mega tight and predictably at this level. some people literally just sit and wait for AA and KK too.

You're probably not 3betting enough if you're only seeing AA against a 3bet.

Think about hand ranges in certain spots. If you're 3betting x% of the time you're going to need a range of hands to 5bet with. If you take KK out of that range then you have nothing. So every time you 5bet you have AA. That makes you extremely beatable against anyone who's thinking at all.

If they are only 4betting AA on the site/stake you're playing on then 3bet them in position with a wider range of hands.

OP is right. I've never followed this 'rule', it depends on the villains.

I'll stack with KK in a BTN vs blind situation as ranges are wider. If I 3bet KK against the UTG raiser who has decent stats like 20/18/6, and I get shoved on, yeah I'm folding.

Likewise if anyone with a 3% 3bet shoves on me, I'll fold KK too, since getting it in here profitably relies on the idea they will stack off with their entire 3bet range and never fold to a 4bet.

Only today I ran into this huge nit. 8/6/1 over 500 hands. I've got KK. A TAG raises from MP and this nit 3bets him from the CO. Is there any real doubt that he's got AA? Instant snapfold and feel good about it.

Talking about 100bb deep stacks BTW. I'd definitely stack off with KK at 50-60bbs against other TAG's, then again most TAG's buy in full.

EDIT: It shouldn't really be surprising that KK is often a dog at 100bb deep. How often are you stacking off with QQ? Not often I'm guessing, because to make a profitable stackoff with QQ, villain has to be stacking off with JJ or TT, and no one, not even the biggest LAG, is doing that.

simple solution: stop playing nitring

Great googly moogly. What is going on in full ring games these days? Does nobody 3bet bluff?

Edit: I see now why Stu Ungar became a millionaire playing full ring in the 80's.

i see other hands against positional 3bets all the time but they usually just flat and then i just cbet and take it on the flop. players are so predictable at this level that i almost always know if i'm ahead or behind based on how they react. like i said, AA is the only hand i see SHOVED 100 bb deep versus my 3bets because like i said, that's the only hand 75% of the players are willing to jam with 100bb pre other than KK. i 3bet nit raisers in position with a decent range because they instantly assume you have AA or KK, or just call and fold to a cbet when they miss.

so if my estimations are correct, it WOULD be +EV to fold in this spot if they're jamming AA 75% and QQ only 25%.

when i play in less predictable games i'll have to go back to the rule likely, but at nitring NL25 players are just so transparent. i have to follow my gut.

If what you say is true then you should be 3betting a ton and betting every flop. If they're playing that predictably against you then you have to take advantage of it. If they never adjust like you say then you should absolutely crush the stake you're playing.

Yo prick

This is 6 max

9 max is for ******s

Come back when ur balls drop, ur voice changes and u have hair on ur balls

I'm talking about 6max, I don't play FR. Though this will happen more at FR, obviously, because of more people at the table you're more likely to run KK into AA.

I don't think KK vs AA is an automatic cooler, definitely. Even in 6max. If you 3bet the UTG raiser who has nitty stats and you get shoved on, don't be surprised if you never see QQ. I sure don't stack off against randomers 3bets with QQ, why would I expect others to? I think most people will push happily with KK but if you're holding KK yourself chances are you're up against AA.

In other news, it gets dark in the evmings in the winter

Wait wat

i definitely 3bet more than the other players at the table. i do it alot vs. nits cuz they usually just fold.

thing is, you still have to try to make it believable. if you go out and start 3betting every rotation people are gonna know you're up to no good. i try to mix them in here and there so its more believable. i want them to really think i have a monster when i do it, otherwise i'll become just as transparent as they are.

and if you get TOO crazy with the 3betting they usually do adjust and start 4betting light because i've tried it.

POST THE SITE
POST EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE
I WANT EDVINce

OVB RIGGED

WHATS UR IP ADDRESS

oh crap i didn't realize they had a separate 9ring section below this on the first page.

can a mod move this please so i don't get berated by 6max players?

I should have just trolled this thread from the start.

haha i get ur trolling the crap out of me

but if i went thru all my NL25 hands, i bet everything i said would hold up statistically...100bb deep it's always AA vs KK facing a 4bet shove. or at least 75% plus, undoubtedly.

i'll just stop posting tho cuz like u said, this is wrong forum section and i doubt any 6max players give two craps about fullring NL25 table dynamics.

the first rule of rules is rules can be broken

The second rule of rules is that you should almost never use the first rule to justify folding KK.

actually, i've been trying to play some 25NL 6max on trupoker, and i ran KK into AA like 90% of the time all in preflop.. well, I can't even actually say preflop. pretty much anytime I got aggression back when I had KK..

man, im having a difficult time folding KK.. and, I was actually wondering this whole topic too.. tho, im a tournament player, and trying to adjust to cash games still.. with a mighty fail so far.

seems like good advice. was thinking this too the other day for myself.
maybe, im not aggressive enough. but, losing has been making second guess agression. even timed aggression.

90% of statistics are made up. Seriously just pick two or three small suited connector combos and always 3bet them IP against nit opens. Learn how to play them post flop. Add water and watch as the profitability of your KK grows like magic.

Are you guys 3betting anything against a nits open? If you're not then don't be surprised when his 4bets are always AA.

The last couple of days I have been 3betting UTG openers a decent lot and I get an amazing amount of folds.

Rules are good foundations but not unbreakable. You will run into players whose stats will indicate that they will only 4-bet or 5-bet with AA. If you still ship your KK might as well play without a HUD.

Yesterday I ran int a HUGE nit with 50 bb stack and when he 4bet me I was sure he had AA, but lolKK@50bb, so I shipped him my money. Today I folded for a little over 100bb and I felt good about it.

There is another rule that says: do not pay off nits when they obviously have it and that rule sometimes collides with other rules and you have to decide which one to apply.

POKER IS RIGGED I KNOW IT. INB4 RIGGAMENTS.