villain here is 66/5/2 with aggro freq 48%. villains min raise reps a fairly big hand here, but I call because I'm getting pretty good odds to hit a flush. We're kind of deep so I don't want to 3bet because I think he can have me beat with a set or something like top two. I'm also kind of concerned on how often this type of player would do this with something like the nut flush draw. On the turn I also get a gutter, so I'm thinking I have 15 outs or so. I think calling half pot is an okay play, but what should my plan be on the river?

My iso raising size is kind of small but throughout the session I had a fair amount of success with it. With the small size I can iso a wider range and qjs plays well multiway so i dont necessarily mind other people entering the pot.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $36.29
BTN: $31.17
Hero (SB): $30.47
BB: $22.38
UTG: $26.81

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J Q
1 fold, CO calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, Hero raises to $0.80, BB calls $0.55, CO calls $0.55, BTN calls $0.55

Flop: ($3.20) 8 Q K (4 players)
Hero bets $1.80, BB folds, CO raises to $3.60, BTN folds, Hero calls $1.80

Turn: ($10.40) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5.20

4 bet get it in on flop

get it in

If he's fish then I think I'd rather take the juicy pot odds on the flop and go from there. Getting it in on flop is prob never a mistake though, especially if he can be raising with AX clubs or whatever.

i 3bet (ninja edit ^^)to $12/call AI (if he just calls flop i shove any turn)
But calling could be okay too because we have odds. But remember it will be difficult to extract a lot of money because our draw is very obvious.
So i get it in OTF

Also, dont raise PF

Get it in on the flop.

Also, it's not a 4bet, it's a 3bet.

I'd put him on KQ, regardless don't expect him to ever fold here. I really don't like semi-bluffing at lower stakes and think it's a serious leak. Just call getting great odds to hit your flush and stack him.

I'd get that in

I wouldn't raise pre. I prolly wouldn't lead flop either with this many ppl in the hand, we have an amazing draw and so many hands are likely to raise this flop that it's just bad IMO, on this flop someone will bet so you don't need to worry about building a pot, wen you hit at these stakes you should get paid, don't put your stack in on a draw when he is highly likely to have KQ or 88 or such

please start doing these things if you like money

Hold up. Sarcasm or not?

lol and lol.

Seriously, if people say not to iso limping fish with JQs pre, just dont listen. And getting it in with at least 45% equity and some foldequity isnt a leak at any stake, ducy?

And raise bigger pre and bet bigger on the flop, shove over his 3bet. You'd get the correct price to call if he shoved over your (bigger) flopbet considering you are going to see 2cards. If you call you'll often see 1 card, I hope you see why thats different. As played you have to call the turn, but its close and I dont feel like calculating. Shoving turn is bad.

haha okay... i was going to ask about that comment but i guess its been answered. yea i know by not seeing two cards when the money goes in im losing equity. im just afraid i dont have the 45% equity or whatever the minimum is i need for a shove on the flop to be profitable/breakeven at the least.

what do you think this type of villains raising range is? and what part of it do you think would fold to my shove?

edit: im pretty sure i wouldnt be able to shove here it's pot limit. if i raised pot and he calls and the turn blanks i think im in trouble

This type of player is very erratic so I would say his range is not as strong as you suggested but its also pretty hard to determine because of his erraticness. He can also have air here, which is about the only part of his range he will fold, since well, these guys dont fold.

I'm used to see anything from a set to toppair no kicker here, and complete trash that will fold.

When I stove the top of his range we are flipping. Against toppair we are a favorite.

Board: Kc Qh 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.462% 48.33% 00.13% 67941 186.50 { QcJc }
Hand 1: 51.538% 51.41% 00.13% 72266 186.50 { QQ, 88, AKs, K2s+, Q8s, AKo, K2o+, Q8o }

Which I think is a pretty strong range to give him, esp since his aggr% is so high.

Yeah, if he calls your potbet you are in trouble on the turn I guess, unless you hit, but I never played potlimit and have no Idea how to adjust to that in spots like this. But I think if he has a 'strong hand' (this guy prob sees toppair as a strong hands) he is not flatting but pushing or folding when he has trash.

If u can't tell then u should probably read thru the stickies, and some other basic/fundamental articles on (uNL)6max NLHE.

Until then, take JEC's post at face value.

edit: as for the hand, IMO it can never be bad to get it in on the flop here. when u just call (w/ good odds here, it must be said) and the turn bricks u lose a lot of equity and are then forced to play a draw OOP which is tough to make into a profitable spot. Also, u cant bank on the fact that when your draw gets there that u will be getting paid off.

edit2: @theshadypeach, maybe u were confused as to his wording, im assuming he meant it as: start raising this pre, start leading the flop here

And another lol

LOLOLOLOL

you attempt to be a douche to everyone but you fail to realize that what you say is completely false and your logic is terribad.

raising from the sb after 2 limpers with QJss is not profitable because we expect too many callers so we can not cbet many flops profitably and are inherent hand strength is not strong enough to play it multiway oop. Assuming villain plays K2o+ like this is hilariously bad and is obv from someone who cant handread at all.

If you like variance op, get it in on the flop, i personally would just call flop and turn.

Pre is fine. If this guy is really as passive post-flop as his stats indicate then postflop we have no FE and hes fishy enough where even if the FD does come in hell be going broke anyways so calling flop is fine. Also hes most likely just gonna call ur flop 3b and when the turn bricks you are left OOP with your d*ck in your hand and no idea wtf to do.

Well, if you think im a douche for saying what I think is the best play, be my guest. But im not calling anyone a douche....

But yeah, you are right, we are behind of 2 limping fishes range and it will always be multiway, because they will always call. And we cant cbet dry flops because we are out of position and 'zomg, waht if teyh call'.

Really?

And if you think he cannot have K2 here, you cant handread. I play against this type of player all day since I play at ongame, he has a huge aggr freq, his range is K2+.

Btw, its not like im an original thinker or anything. I think I got these concepts from a wiltontilt video. But you are right, I should listen to you instead, you are probably much more knowlegable then him. After all, you are the wizzard of odds.

His aggr freq is 48. It is indeed a shame we cant 3bet more then potsize.

you are loling at people who are stating there opinion, this makes you a douche.

Yes, you will be mutliway a very large % of the time because you are raising into two presumed fish oop and there is a chance the BB calls also.

It is quite obvious you are just some blind follower of a training site who cant think for themselves, you didnt have to tell me that.

Yep, can't think for myself. You however are self thought and a oh so creative thinker thats why you are here and not playing atm, you want to enrich us with your deep insights. I cannot believe someone as awesome as you doesnt like me.

Btw, if you dont think K2 is in his range you should play at ongame for a week. Its full of droolers like this. This guy bets or raises half of the flops. (I came to that conclusion myself, you proud?)

If you kids don't stop it....I swear to god that I'll pull this thread over and you two will not be getting happy meals.

Wiz are you saying dont raise pre and dont get it in on flop? which imo are very +EV plays

i failed to mention that this villain actually doesnt raise the flop too often despite his stats, so i'm putting him on a fairly strong range here. at the very least tpgk, sets, maybe the nfd (this is what im most curious about... would this type of player do this with ax clubs?). also some of these stats can be deceiving because some donks min bet randomly a fair amount which increases their af and aggro freq.

i know i have to call the flop, but is it mandatory to call the turn bet? and what should my plan be for the river if i miss? im assuming i should just donk bet into him if i hit the flush on the river.

i also would like to emphasize that i might not actually be able to get it in on the flop. i can only raise however much the pot raise allows me which i doubt would be my whole stack. then id be committing myself and if villain flatted and the turn bricked id be in trouble.