QQ vs nit - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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QQ vs nit

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04-30-2014 , 09:50 AM

Thuen88

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,329

Villain was playing 11/8 with 6% open from EP. 45% cbet. 55% turn cbet. SB was a tag.

Can we fold here on the turn vs his big bet ? He is showing some huge strength after betting the flop 3 way and bombing this turn card imo.

Poker Stars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($25.73)
SB ($39.12)
BB ($16.58)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($34.10)
MP1 ($33.25)
MP2 ($19.64)
MP3 ($37.98)
Hero (CO) ($25.04)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q

, Q

1 fold, UTG+1 raises $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) 5

, 4

, 7

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $2.24, Hero calls $2.24, 1 fold

Turn: ($6.83) 2

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $4.89, Hero ?

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04-30-2014 , 10:23 AM

Mzbourg

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6,670

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

It's 3 way, we have the Qh(which isn't a huge point because it's 3way but still) and he's a nit. Can probably fold turn, we'd be folding a ton though but I guess that's okay here.

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04-30-2014 , 12:05 PM

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

I would 3bet pre, regardless of his 6% range on EP. It's not 3%. If he calls, do a cbet OTF. If he 4bets pre then fold.

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04-30-2014 , 12:33 PM

Thuen88

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,329

He had 68% fold to 3b, so that would be bad imo. Vs a nit that calls every PP to a 3b i like it.

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04-30-2014 , 12:36 PM

Mzbourg

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6,670

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazarder1980

I would 3bet pre, regardless of his 6% range on EP. It's not 3%. If he calls, do a cbet OTF. If he 4bets pre then fold.

This is terrible. You should stop doing this if this is your default.

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04-30-2014 , 12:41 PM

daniel9861

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,390

Does he have a fold button or does he get emotionally attached to his overpairs? His range is kind of capped here and would seriously consider turning our hand into a bluff.

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04-30-2014 , 12:46 PM

Thuen88

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 1,329

Not sure, but his bet size makes me think he`s very attached to his hand here.

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04-30-2014 , 01:11 PM

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzbourg

This is terrible. You should stop doing this if this is your default.

Please explain why. I remind you that these are micros, fancy play doesn't work here.

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04-30-2014 , 01:12 PM

daniel9861

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,390

Yeah if you aren't sure I wouldn't try it. Think I'd call expecting to see a free showdown a lot and possibly turn our hand into a bluff if an 8 or 6 peeled off. If he's betting AA/KK here he's also betting JJ/TT with a high frequency.

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04-30-2014 , 01:26 PM

#10

Mzbourg

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6,670

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazarder1980

Please explain why. I remind you that these are micros, fancy play doesn't work here.

It's not fancy play. Granted I disagree with your last sentence but it's not fancy play when we flat here. He's only opening 6% of hands and has a f23b of 68%. By 3betting we just narrow down his range too much, a range that is extremely tight already. Not to mention that given the positions his likely response to our 3bet will be either fold or 4bet, and given how you're suggesting we should fold to his 4bet, we're basically just bluffing with QQ.

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04-30-2014 , 02:06 PM

#11

donkey_bonker

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,355

This is a pretty standard fold with his rfi and cbet stats imo.

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04-30-2014 , 03:48 PM

#12

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzbourg

His 68% f23b includes calling steals and resteals so it's only a part of the picture. I don't have stove right now, but I'm pretty sure 6% range includes holdings like TT. With a hand like TT it is legit to do cbets on both flop and turn. If we made a 3bet pre then we would have more info on his holding. This is how I see it, I might be wrong. I would even 3bet him with a JJ.

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04-30-2014 , 04:16 PM

#13

onlyamonkey

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 366

It's a very standard call turn and fold river.

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04-30-2014 , 04:28 PM

#14

Mzbourg

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6,670

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazarder1980

Yeah so he probably has a higher f23b EP vs MP 3bet which is only another reason to flat. Fwiw 3betting JJ here is really bad too. But maybe you could explain what we achieve by 3betting those hands.

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04-30-2014 , 10:02 PM

#15

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,774

If we're going to 3bet bluff this guy, I'd rather 3bet Axss instead and call with QQ.

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05-01-2014 , 02:39 AM

#16

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzbourg

Yeah so he probably has a higher f23b EP vs MP 3bet which is only another reason to flat. Fwiw 3betting JJ here is really bad too. But maybe you could explain what we achieve by 3betting those hands.

Simply to get info cheaper. With flatting the flop, H payed $3 and still has no info on V's holding. If H 3bet pre he would pay only $2.25 and get a better feeling about V's holding.

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05-01-2014 , 02:52 AM

#17

daniel9861

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,390

Gotta get that info.

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05-01-2014 , 07:44 AM

#18

Mzbourg

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6,670

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazarder1980

Simply to get info cheaper.

Alright man. Not going to argue why that is abysmal. If you think it works, more power to you.

Quote:

With flatting the flop, H payed $3 and still has no info on V's holding. If H 3bet pre he would pay only $2.25 and get a better feeling about V's holding.

Fwiw, this isn't true. We have a perfect feeling for villains holding as his actions kinda define his range, and given that he's a nit with a 6% opening range his range is already defined, so to speak.

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05-01-2014 , 09:00 AM

#19

coldeu

adept

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 776

3betting QQ here is horrible to not say awfullybad. Sorry hazarder but you're wrong.

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05-01-2014 , 10:27 AM

#20

qwertz1

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,243

3betting pre seems terrible.

I dont have stove right now, but what does 6% looks like? TT+AQ+?

If you think Villan is a good playing nit I'd lean towards fold. If hes bad and bets any OP regardless I'd call.

Turning our hand into a bluff is also a decent option, because our FE should be huge. But then, we have better (weaker) hands, with more equity to do it.

Raising for information.. have to love the guy that had this idea first.

Last edited by qwertz1; 05-01-2014 at 10:33 AM.

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05-01-2014 , 11:37 AM

#21

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

Ok, 4vs1, seems you have me beat. I am perfectly ok with the fact I might be wrong. Maybe this is slowing my winrate and I am not aware of it. We are all here on forums to learn.

Nevertheless, I will run DB filter to see what's my success rate in QQ 3bet vs ~6% pfr.

Again, I appologize if my posts were offensive. That was certainly not my intention.

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05-01-2014 , 06:46 PM

#22

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,774

Your posts are not at all offensive, no reason to think they are.

FWIW, you may find you are +EV 3betting QQ vs. 6% PFR. That doesn't mean it's the most EV line though - for example you would likely be +EV at 2NL limping AA and never folding postflop but it's not the best line.

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05-02-2014 , 02:17 PM

#23

hazarder1980

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 39

The only report I could make is QQ vs overall PFR which doesn't represent the hand in topic.

If anyone knows how to interpret data from CSV files in HEM2 appdata players folder I think I would be able to extract the information. I already extracted players who made initial raise when H made 3b with QQ pre but HEM db doesn't store positional PFR stats, only overall PFR stats. HEM replayer is pulling positional stats from aforementioned folder.

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