so what's your line?

you realize how bad b/f is, right? ya know in terms of our opponents range

a+

sinderg keeps giving me grades, i'm hoping it's not sarcasm, but it's the interwebs, so you never know.

na its no dig Spenda.
i really respect your reply's, looks like you've got a good grasp of a full view on poker.

what you don't realize is how wide a 28/18's range is in the first place, even in a 3bet pot. I put him at 17% PF and just narrowed down to his strongest holdings on the flop.

FWIW I'm not giving him any credit whatsoever for opening UTG and folding to a 3bet, and until we know otherwise, I'm not going to.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

73,260 games 0.005 secs 14,652,000 games/sec

Board: Jh 8d 6d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.302% 41.60% 00.71% 30473 517.50 { TT+, 88, 66, AdKd, AdQd, AJs, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KJs, KdTd, Kd9d, QJs, QdTd, Qd9d, J9s+, AJo, KJo, QJo }
Hand 1: 57.698% 56.99% 00.71% 41752 517.50 { QcQd }

I was thinking about this hand on my way to a work meeting today.

For those advocating folding to this raise on the flop . . . WTF are you 3-betting PF for then? We're putting too much of our stack into the pot PF to set mine. So if you're 3-betting, and not committing on a J-high flop, then what are we doing in this hand? You're better off flatting the PFR and playing pot control if you're going to fold to that raise here.

I really think you need to work on your understanding of hand ranges if you think this is ever J9. My line here is to bet $10 and fold to a minraise. lol J9

you're lol, i totally misunderstand ranges because I put one hand in there that "theoretically" he probably won't show up with.

I think what you're having a hard time grasping bud is how wide range his UTG range is, I'm guessing you weren't expecting to see that many mediocre hands in there, but from a 28/18 it's actually on the tight end.

I said you need to work on your understanding of it, not that you totally misunderstand hand ranges. Also, why are you putting "theoretically" in quotation marks? We are working completely theoretically. J9 is not in his range, neither is KJ. Did OP mention that villain was positionally unaware? No - this is why he does not have J9 here. let's look at the action:

He raises UTG, calls a 3bet from a guy out of the blinds. He check / minraises his cbet. You've seen this and think at any point in time he will ever turn over J9 after doing this? I would maybe think he had a hand like J9 if his stats were something like 60/20/2.

I've seen this same action from hands like 4-5 dimes and 5-7 dimes and random crap like that. Sometimes people think they are being tricky, sometimes they just don't know what they are doing. You will see J9 or J-10 here rarely but occasionally.

This is not an easy shove... Villain has TAGgish stats. What does he call a 3-bet with? Or more specifically, what does he call a 3-bet with that makes a play like this on this flop? AJ, set, or fancy overpair I think most of the time. Maybe an overcard with flush draw. I don't think he's calling the 3-bet with something like A8, KJ, or whatever.

it doesn't matter, because that's the decision you make when you raise it up before the flop. if you don't think a guy is gonna pay off with a favorable range to your overpair when you flop one, then just play it slow and try to win a medium pot in position with a strong 1 pair hand. you can't turn good hands into quarter stack bluffs. once you pick your path pf, then you just roll with it.

If we were in the blinds, I could understand calling with QQ against certain players. But on the BTN? We're giving too good odds for the blinds to call. I also think we have a good amount of PF fold-equity and against his likely 3-bet calling range, we still have a decent amount of fold-equity.

i'm not saying that we should start calling ip with QQ pf. i'm just saying that if we don't think there's value in getting money in with an overpair, then it usually makes more sense. the reason that we almost always 3bet them is because we're almost always up against favorable ranges when we flop good and get action.

jam

At first when I read this post I was siding with piebear, but it looks like everybody is disagreeing. So here's what is going through my mind. Yeah we want to 3-bet pre-flop for value because QQ is ahead of his raising range. And we are planning on getting it in on a low flop where we beat a lot of hands except for AA and KK. And although he is loose, his raising range looks to me like it's the same as that of a tag, his calling range is just wider, I don't think J9 is ever showing up here. But when the flop comes J high the number of hands that we beat is really minimal. We're crushing AJ obv, but that's the only hand we're crushing. Even if weaker hands are in his range I don't think villain is hardly ever doing this with a hand weaker than AJ.

So what am I missing? I don't think just cause we were 3-betting for value means we have to shove the flop. What if the flop came TdJd2c would you still think it's an easy shove?

just because you're ahead of his raising range does not mean that you're neccessarily getting value with a reraise. if he raises atc but only calls with AA, then reraising isn't raise for value, its a bluff. whether or not our bets have value is determined by the range of hands that continues, not the range of hands that folds.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.559% 49.56% 00.00% 10794 0.00 { JJ, 88, 66, AdKd, AdQd, AJs, AJo }
Hand 1: 50.441% 50.44% 00.00% 10986 0.00 { QcQd }

if u assume he gets fancy with overpairs and doesnt call so many small pps, we still got equity to get it in.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.424% 54.42% 00.00% 13470 0.00 { KK, JJ, 88, AdKd, AdQd, AJs, AJo }
Hand 1: 45.576% 45.58% 00.00% 11280 0.00 { QcQd }

I dont get how this is close o0

Isn't this range ridiculously tight? I think he shows up with at least KJ/ Axd type hands here some of the time.

I wouldn't be thrilled about it or anything but I think it's a shove.

Also I'm new and theres a significant chance that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

your actually spot on

That range is way too tight

Because AJ is very unlikely and I wouldn't even consider it within his range. This is why your range is too loose. Just because he has a slightly high vpip, this does not mean that he calls 3bets light. He may be calling a lot of preflop raises light, and limping a lot, but this does NOT mean he is raising / calling /check/minraising AJo. Your range is too loose dude.

hes 28/18 lol, it makes it quite likely that he calls 3bets light.

and if we are gonna piss our pants if we get action on a non a/k flop postflop with qq we have no business 3betting it in first place

vpip/pfr have little to do with fold to 3b % you will find 28/18's who almost always fold and some who almost never fold.

ppl that love coldcalling will also be more inclined to call 3bets lighter imo.

we didn't piss our pants when a non a/k flop came - we did it when he check/minraised.