Table dynamic/hero image
I was at the table 5 hands. FWIW, I raised the hand before (from BTN), got called by BB (SB in hand I want to discuss) and didn't Cb 56s on a 7J9 twotoned board (not my color). Hand was checked down, he showed 22. Other than that, nothing happened.

The villans

• The limper in UTG+1 is a typical loose/passive fish running 53/6/0.8 over 54 hands. Fold to Cb is 63%
• CO is basicly unknown and running 28/14 over 29 hands
• BTN is a semi-reg, on the passive site. Postflop he is fit or fold and straightforward, he rarely bluffs and is running 21/11/3.3 over 460 hands (PFR LP: 18%, so he doesn't raise a ton of hands on the BTN).
• The SB is a fish, 79/21 over 14 hands.
• BB is an unknown tighty, didn't find a hand to play with in 16 hands, so running 0/0.

And now the hand:

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (MP): $50.00
CO: $53.00 28/14 unknown over 29 hands
BTN: $50.00 21/11 semireg
SB: $38.95 79/21 fish
BB: $30.00 Unknown 0/0 over 16 hands
UTG: $30.15
UTG+1: $50.25 53/6 fish

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with 5 4
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, Hero ?


I can see arguments for limping behind, isoing (given his fold to cb, he c/f a lot of flops) and folding. Which arguments should prevail?

in general, I'd raise or fold, with a preference to folding. The nice thing is that 54s is easy to play OOP. The con is that even if it does hit, you're not likely to be paid off. If you raise, you can rep a lot of strength and take down the pot hit or miss. If you want to get in a pot with the 79/21 fish, that's probably the best argument I can see for limping if you think he's going to raise you.

I'd raise or fold. You don't want to be limp calling from MP.

Oops, I thought you were the UTG+1 limper. This makes limping slightly more viable, but not much more so.

I'd make it $2-2.50 preflop. We give ourselves a better chance to have absolute position postflop, stand to get value when this guy calls and c/f's the flop, and avoid a spot where we limp and the CO or BTN make a larger raise and we either have to fold or play an even bigger pot with worse IO OOP against the aggressor. (sucky, imo). Plus, I think raising is gonna put us in a nice spot where the decent (or non-terrible players) fold, but the donkish SB definitely tags along and UTG+1 calls, and we get to play IP with a great IO hand against ******s. Raise size is a toss up because making it bigger gets more value from UTG+1, but making it smaller invites the donk in and gives us more room to outplay villains postflop.

What's a IO hand? Implied odds?

yes

Fold. Of the players behind, most of them are fairly loose and some are going to be sticky on any flop.

Obviously you didn't, so you're going to have interesting decision points in this hand, I'm sure. I'd much rather have profitable decision points.

Fold. Too many players still to act for me to want to raise, limping sucks since we get raised by CO or SB a lot of the time, and suited connectors aren't a hand I want to pay a lot of money with OOP to see a flop.

In this case I think fold > raise > limp.

From CO I would raise. Having the extra person to act after me makes me hesitate to raise from the HJ. Not that I never do it, I just do it less. But raising at least allows for the possibility of getting HU with UTG+1.

I really don't like limping here because we will have to fold to a raise (and with 4 people yet to act that becomes just a little more likely). Also, as venice10 said, our opponents are likely to be sticky post flop, so unless we hit two pairs or better, we are not going to be able to bet OOP.

Thanks for the reactions so far.

RE, thanks for your analysis and I completely agree it's a raise.

I opt to limp behind, the most hated option untill now and I think it deserves more love than it gets. First of all, if we limp, we can endup in a 4w/5w limped pot with SC's, sometimes with posion, most of the times not, but we have two huge fish in the pot, both with full stacks. However, if our limp gets raised, we most likely have to fold, unless both SB and UTG+1 call and the price is reasonable, in which case we play a 4w pot against a PFR and 2 fish with relative position.

I gave a detailed description of the players behind me, because they were my mainreason to limp behind: they are going to let that happen so often!

It would be completely different if CO and BTN both were 16/13 types, but these opponents are way more likely to limp behind than raising 2 or more limpers. Last: even if they raise, their size will be crappy more often than not, the fish will call a lot and I get good odds + good relative position to call too in that case.

So all-in-all, overlimping speculative hands with fish in the pot when the players behind are not likely to iso light, can't be a burning money thing imo, but feel free to shoot. If I had note the high fold to cb% of the first limper, I'd raised it up, but I missed it and figured he was more a callingstation type.

I limp behind, plan to hit a big hand and stack one of the fish and otherwise just fold.

flop

Hero (MP2) ($50)
CO ($53)
Button ($50)
SB ($38.95)
BB ($30)
UTG ($30.15)
UTG+1 ($50.25)



Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5, 4
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, Button calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, BB checks

Flop: ($2.50) 7, 6, 7 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets $1, SB calls $1, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero ?


Is someone leading out on this board?
Are we going to call the 1$ bet? A couple of things for consideration:
- The semireg, who is passive bets, both the fish are calling;
- We have dirty outs, like spades or an 8 gives 78 a FH;
- We obv. have pretty good IO against hands like A7, K7, or any other 7x in the fishes ranges.

Most important: if we call, what is our plan for the turn if we hit a clean out or a dirty out (note the semireg makes the bet on the flop)?

I think if I'm going to play this hand at all, I'm betting $2 here. Might as well start building a pot worth winning if you hit. It's possible everyone else missed and you take the hand down right here.

Don't forget that you're drawing dead against pocket 6s or 7s.

Fold pre-flop. As played, flat the flop. You're getting proper odds, and the pot's getting big enough all by itself for this kind of hand on such a drawy board.

Yeah good point, forget that to mention in my previous post.

This is one of the reasons why I ask what we are going to do on the turn in case we hit.

I'm fine with the limp... it doesn't sound like anyone is isoing light and even if they are you are going to be getting odds to call. Folding is fine too (and probably the best option honestly). If I had a hand that hits the flop more often (like a pocket pair) then I like opening.

Turn is a flat call... we're going to be firing heavy on a non-spade 3 or 8. We will tread lightly if the 8 or 3 of spades comes out (it really depends on the action at that point). We fold on most other turn cards unless getting the right price.

You're drawing at the donkey end of the straight.

You've got to either fold or raise at this point. You've got 3 people making weak bet/calls at this pot. To have any hope of actually winning, you need to narrow the field so that some of the draws drop out. Otherwise, you're faced with only being happy that 3 cards hit the turn and only the 3 2s don't potentially help any one's hands. With the fish in, it is possible that an 8 is not an out.

Got a feeling this is going to end up a BBV thread.

Easy fold.
53/6 is not someone I battle with 45sooted. They are going to lose their money eventually, pick a better spot.

First of all fold the flop, you're getting the low end of a straight that can easily be the 4th best hand, even on the river.

You're reasoning for limping pre is very very slim.... why not take the free money when it's presented to you. You can take down a 10BB pot most of the time if you raise/cbet or you can forfeit 1BB a majority of the time by limping. The best part of ISOing this guy (Other then the CBET profit) is if you hit your hand (2p, straight, flush) and he hits any part of it, you're going to get some great value.

OP - Very good HH's layout, it is a pleasure to see someone put effort into giving as much information as possible to the forum. Given that you have put in this much effort - I will attempt to give you as comprehensive summary of my view of the hand.

Preflop issues
Clearly the most important issue will be whether we want to play our holding or not.
- The most compelling reason to play is that a very loose passive player has entered the pot. By choosing to play bad players as often as possible we enable ourselves to have as many opportunities as possible to have as big a skill edge as possible. Given that the worst players make more mistakes and larger mistakes than even modest losing players - the imperative to play pots with these villians is quite often compelling.
Given the above - unless there a multiple strong reasons not to enter the pot - then I think the opportunity to play this player is too good to pass up.

So ok - Can we find many good reasons not to play this villian?
(1) Our Holding 45 : Now vs villian this holding hot/cold equity does very poorly.
e.g. Assume that villian opens from EP for a raise - only JJ+ AK.

5d4d vs TT-33,AQs-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J3s+,T5s+,96s+,86s+,75s+,65s,AQo-A2o,K4o+,Q6o+,J7o+,T7o+,98o (top 50% of holdings ex JJ+AK.)

38% vs 62%

So we should expect to lose 24c in the every dollar played vs his range if every flop went to showdown.

Ok so that is a good reason to just fold.

But then you look at Fold to C-bet of ~60% - When a number is around this number ( against this type of villian) you can assume that in many respects he will be fit or fold. Given that it is 2-1 to hit a pair on the flop - i.e. 66% of the time he will miss.....it sort of makes sense.
In addition to this we can expect that villian will be unlikely to bluff his air vs our air very often. So when we do have equity - given his passivity we should be able to chase draws in position vs the villian in position.

But our cards ranking of 5 high means that our capacity to value bet one pair holdings is very very low. Given that flushes and Straights are hard to make then - clearly we will be relying more on implied odds and exploiting villians tendencies rather than direct odds value betting.

Summary of the proposition to this point is
Skill advantage and Positional advantage inclines us to to play the pot.
Our Hand Strength and hot/cold equity vs his range provide a severe disadvantage if we do choose to play.

But he is not the only player at the table...

(2) Other players at the table.
- If we either isolate or limp behind - Do we expect to see the flop very frequently?
- Well we do not have very good players between us and the BTN which is good.
And every other player should play very straightforward.
- Which leads me to believe that it is highly unlikely that if faced with an isolation raise or a 3Bet that we will not be squeezed off playing except by good value hands.

So I do not believe that there are any particular villians at the table that should preclude us from playing. Two types that would give me pause are Shortstackers or aggro TAG/LAG with position on us.

Given OP is a good micro 2+2er - he should be inclined to play this hand.
Now the issue then becomes how should he play this hand.
Well OP highlighted that he is new to the table and has a clean image. So nothing really has happened that restricts his options, this consideration is important but hard to quantify and as such often overlooked particularly with the "villians are not paying attention" maxim that pervades uNL FR.

Should we isolate or limp behind?

Whether consiously or not, most likely consiously given chris is a good player, OP has choosen a very good seat.
Please note my Highlighted comments in quotation:

This is important: For the reason Rapid points out of our capacity to guarantee absolute position is greatest when we have Straightforward tightish players between us and the button.

Given we are on the HJ and have tight players to our left - these are two good reasons to isolate the 'bad player'.

But the further we are away from the button the more likely that we will go multiway anyway. This is not an insignificant consideration - I would argue with this table that >33% of the time we will see the flop multiway. This is based upon the cumulative probabilities of each player always playing thier top 10% of hands + original limper likely never folds.
And in this case the SB is playing 70% of hands to begin with and a 70bb stack.

So these are the reasons why I think it is a very close decision to limp behind or to Isolate.

I'm probably isolating lighter than most but this is actually a fold PF (my 2 cents obv). Flop is a c/f as well.

Why it is close.
Well if a very significant portion of the time we will be creating a large amount of passive dead money + the presence of a 60bb stack BB, then the impliedness of our holding will be greatly reduced the times we do go multiway. This is important in and of itself but when we cannot be guaranteed absolute position i.e. we dont have the BTN - we have to account for the times that we will be being squeezed between the limper and fish with the 'less bad' players to our left - which will effect our total EV of an isolation raise.

Then when I consider - of implied odds hands how does 54s rank, I would say it is in fact one of the lesser holdings. When it makes a straight it is low, when it makes a flush it is low.

Which is why I think any Kx Qx Jx will have far more utility in isolating from the HJ on tables such as these.

My inclination is to limp behind - given that if I am isolated myself I will likely be closing out the betting alot and have some manuevrability trapping the fish post flop.