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Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Non Showdown problems/How can I improve?

01-26-2012 , 09:00 AM
Unfortunately I got serious problems with non showdown winnings. I play 20/18 on 6-max NL30 (i know it is too tight, try to loose it up), and lost a tone of money with non shodown winnigs.

I read some articles, and I tried to be aware things that can help me to improve in NSW:

- stop continuation betting in bad spots
- play the draws aggressively
- (stop) too much 3bet call, and fold to cbet on postflop
- stop calling with lower pairs on dplicated flops, then fold that
- continue the aggressivity in a 3bet ot, when I was the pre agressor

Can anybody suggest me more strategy, to improve in non showdown? Can you complete the list pls? Thx a lot!
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 09:13 AM
Instead of limping behind with some marginal stuff (e.g. J10s, 76s) iso raise against the limper. You'll take it down pre alot, and if he does call u can take it down with a cbet on the flop.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 03:58 PM
Bluff more and go through with your bluffs; carefully choosing the right spots is crucial though
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:12 PM
bluffing is only a small part of increasing your redline.

-Steal more, wider vs tight players. If a guy is not 3betting me from the blinds at all without premiums, e.g a 3bet % of 3-5%, then I open almost ATC on the BTN, and wider from the CO as well if BTN + blinds are tight.(there's some other stuff that factor into this, but i rather just leave it as it is)

-Valuebet thinner, when you vbet thinner and they fold, your redline increases while your blue line stays the same. Obviously you want to make good valuebets though.

-3betting PF vs a villain who has a high fold to 3bet. Ex. Villain is on CO and opens to 3bb, you 3bet risking 9bb to pick up 4.5bb, means it only needs to work 75% to show an instant profit. So if villain is folding to 3bets 75%+ of the times, you show an immediate profit from just 3betting him.

-Learning when to cbet, double barrel and triple barrel bluff is very important. your redline suffers when you make horrible double/triple barrels. But not making double/triple barrel bluffs is also just as bad as you are essentially giving up on a pot that you could have won had you fired another barrel or 2

Last edited by ChrisCrocker; 01-26-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: bad math
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:16 PM
20/18 I wouldn't say is too tight, I play similar stats and seem to be slowly winning but admittidly over a small sample.

I've found that if you find the right boards/opponents double/triple barreling can become reasonably profitable. 3betting with weaker hands pf vs loose villains hu raise/fold way too much is also good.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:19 PM
you can play a winning style with a very negative redline
try to focus on improving your game overall not just your non sd winnings

also just dont autpilot
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:25 PM
Also bluff catching, if their line doesn't make sense, look them up. You only have to be right 33% of the time to break even when bluffing catching a potsize bet. Every time you get folded off the best hand after calling flop + turn, ur red line goes for a dip.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCrocker
-3betting PF vs a villain who has a high fold to 3bet. Ex. Villain is on CO and opens to 3bb, you 3bet risking 9bb to pick up 4.5bb, means it only needs to work 75% to show an instant profit. So if villain is folding to 3bets 75%+ of the times, you show an immediate profit from just 3betting him.
you edited it and still got the math wrong. the equation for bluffing odds is bet/(pot + bet). 9/(4.5+9)=66%
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 04:40 PM
do this;

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $50.00
SB: $50.00
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $31.95
MP: $51.50
CO: $50.50

SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has K 5

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $4.25, BTN calls $2.75

Flop: ($8.75, 2 players) 7 A 2
Hero bets $5.25, BTN calls $5.25

Turn: ($19.25, 2 players) Q
Hero bets $9.50, BTN raises to $19.50, Hero raises to $40.50 and is all-in, fold

Spoiler:
Hero wins $55.40

Last edited by Queen6Suited; 01-26-2012 at 04:41 PM. Reason: don't ofc, got like 10000 other examples where they call with aces.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 07:08 PM
play less tabls,
sush out players betting and checking ranges, then bet/chck more,
thin value bet
3bet light in certain spots
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhySoCurious
you edited it and still got the math wrong. the equation for bluffing odds is bet/(pot + bet). 9/(4.5+9)=66%
LOL i had it at 66% then i changed it cause i was paranoid i had it wrong. it was one of the two.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 07:13 PM
Having a negative redline at the micros really isn't a problem. I don't know why people care about it so much.

The mistake your opponents are making is calling too much, not folding too much.

If your win rate is good then don't stress, whatever you're doing is right. Maybe make a few adjustments but there's no need to make radical changes to your game.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote
01-26-2012 , 07:27 PM
Why do you want to improve it? id say at least up to NL100 you dont need to be pulling off complex bluffs to get a good win rate. As long as you are wining just concentrate on what wins at your level, which is pretty much value betting and making good folds.

but ok, about the redline. its pretty much a matter of your style that dictates how this fairs.

When I first started out, for about 1.5 million hands my NSD where going down in 45% angle, pretty much like a standard Fullring TAG and all my profit was SD winnings. Here I was a consistent and steady winner (steady eddy)

then for next 800k hands I went through a bit of a lag phase and I was winning in NSD but only slightly winning in SDW. Now I was still winning but the swings were insane and actually my overall WR was not so good.

for the last approx 500k hand ive found a happy balance and im winning big in SD winnings and mw redline is like a horizontal straight line around the B/E mark or slightly positive/ slightly negative, now im alot more consistent and the swings are less, this is where I am much more comfortable.

The main changes I have made to get a nice redline are just pretty basic, Im cbetting better (less) but double barrelling alot more, The crazy river bluffs are not something I do often but do take advantage of rivered flush cards if it looks like villian is betfolding, then ill often turn a good made hand into a bluff. Actually I probably turn made hands into bluffs more than most do when it seems im bit but the baord runs out good to do this. Im stealing better and finding better spots to 3bet/Sqz. But mostly ive found its been about cbeting more inteligently.

So overall I wouldnt worry too much about your redline if you are winning and are comfortable with your style and dont worry about being too tight if this style is what your happy with, many styles can win and dont play more hands just to improve your stats. 20/18 isnt tight anyway.
Non Showdown problems/How can I improve? Quote

      
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