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NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP

05-03-2019 , 12:40 PM
Don't 3 bet this pre at 5nl Zoom where no one 4 bets AK. You end up in this spot where you underrep your hand and feel you have to call down and then lose to KQ/AK. I would only 3 bet this against people who are overfolding to 3 bets or fish who will call with hands you dominate.

On reg tables 3 bet this 100%, follow what WorldzMine said for ranges. But honestly at Zoom your asking for trouble here (very high variance too.)

This advice comes from much experience of getting wrecked 3betting KQ/AQ/KJs in this spot at zoom.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
This was a 3x open pre from late position this is NEVER a call. (I mean maybe you could make an exception with a huge fish in the bb but that's about it)

If you are flatting hands vs 3x that are supposed to be in a standard sb 3 bet range, that is a leak. Basically 3bet or fold only from the sb virtually always.

Use the following range: 77+, all suited broadways, A5s, AJo+, KQo. Sometimes you can go a bit wider with like 87s+, A4s, etc but the above is standard, and the sb basically MUST be played this way. You aren't Phil Ivey who can flat whatever OOP and still be +EV with it lol
Definitely considered to be an interesting range, even with wider range it's only 11,76% of the hands... (btw. the pun at the end no needed ppl came here to learn )... on the other hand if you are 3Betting the range you mentioned and never calling it's quite easy to adjust to your game (I know it's micro but either way)... I would rather consider to choose a call with some playable hands like:
44-99(or88)
AKo; A5s-A2s; A4o-A5o
KJo-KQo; QJo
And suited connectors 87s-KQs+KJs
(it makes around 11% of your range calling range with playable hands)
And consider 3 bet w/
99+; 22-33
A6s+
A8o-AQo
KTs-K9S
QTs
J9s
(it makes another 11,76% of your hands)
And from these hands above, sometimes i would put AKs-AJs to the calling range as well... I defend much more hands, and my range is much more polarized...

So vs. OR i play around 23% of the hands while when I'm on SB and i lean toward around 40-42% of hands as RFI ...
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 291
Don't 3 bet this pre at 5nl Zoom where no one 4 bets AK. You end up in this spot where you underrep your hand and feel you have to call down and then lose to KQ/AK. I would only 3 bet this against people who are overfolding to 3 bets or fish who will call with hands you dominate.

On reg tables 3 bet this 100%, follow what WorldzMine said for ranges. But honestly at Zoom your asking for trouble here (very high variance too.)

This advice comes from much experience of getting wrecked 3betting KQ/AQ/KJs in this spot at zoom.
This just isn't true. You just need to know how to play this range postflop.

For example on dry boards w/ one high card you bet 1/3 w/ range OTF. On wetter boards with high cards you bet about 2/3 w/ range on the flop. Most lower boards you will usually just x/f the flop. To protect your checking range sometimes mix in some flop x/r's with a mix of the nuts and big draws. On the turn if you bet the flop follow through with bigger hands and draws or things like BDFD that picked up equity. Sometimes you can x/c turns if you are afraid of getting raised although your sets and top two can protect against that. Other times if you have like AA on something like Q962 you can x/jam the turn, etc.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeoBear
Definitely considered to be an interesting range, even with wider range it's only 11,76% of the hands... (btw. the pun at the end no needed ppl came here to learn )... on the other hand if you are 3Betting the range you mentioned and never calling it's quite easy to adjust to your game (I know it's micro but either way)... I would rather consider to choose a call with some playable hands like:
44-99(or88)
AKo; A5s-A2s; A4o-A5o
KJo-KQo; QJo
And suited connectors 87s-KQs+KJs
(it makes around 11% of your range calling range with playable hands)
And consider 3 bet w/
99+; 22-33
A6s+
A8o-AQo
KTs-K9S
QTs
J9s
(it makes another 11,76% of your hands)
And from these hands above, sometimes i would put AKs-AJs to the calling range as well... I defend much more hands, and my range is much more polarized...
It's not easy to adjust to, it's literally solver approved. Some of the hands you listed like 22-33, A8o-A9o should be folded at 100% frequency. The others can be included but are just outside of hands included with 100% 3bet. So hands like K9s, J9s, 76s can be mixed in vs villains with high ft3b etc. You want your OOP 3bets from the sb to be a merged range not polarized. Also, flatting the top of your range with AJs-AKs is just lol. You want immediate value and to start building a big pot with these hands.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
This was a 3x open pre from late position this is NEVER a call. (I mean maybe you could make an exception with a huge fish in the bb but that's about it)

If you are flatting hands vs 3x that are supposed to be in a standard sb 3 bet range, that is a leak. Basically 3bet or fold only from the sb virtually always.

Use the following range: 77+, all suited broadways, A5s, AJo+, KQo. Sometimes you can go a bit wider with like 87s+, A4s, etc but the above is standard, and the sb basically MUST be played this way. You aren't Phil Ivey who can flat whatever OOP and still be +EV with it lol
Understand what you say but to say never, when if bb dont 3 bet much this should be profitable call. It is always good to check options.And this is not hand we need to board coverage 3bets or that it is super profitable 3 bet.
e:I can see call as and exploitable option if my image is too loose in 3bets and bb is not 3 beting lot

Last edited by Pokerisbingo; 05-03-2019 at 01:27 PM.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
It's not easy to adjust to, it's literally solver approved. Some of the hands you listed like 22-33, A8o-A9o should be folded at 100% frequency. The others can be included but are just outside of hands included with 100% 3bet. So hands like K9s, J9s, 76s can be mixed in vs villains with high ft3b etc. You want your OOP 3bets from the sb to be a merged range not polarized. Also, flatting the top of your range with AJs-AKs is just lol. You want immediate value and to start building a big pot with these hands.
Sounds fair... Maybe I should try to add bit more of it to my game and see how does it work for me ...
But I Still think you shuld have some calls in your range

And for flatting AKs-AJs i said sometimes like every 10th hand with those hands ...

Last edited by BeoBear; 05-03-2019 at 01:45 PM.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldzMine
This just isn't true. You just need to know how to play this range postflop.

For example on dry boards w/ one high card you bet 1/3 w/ range OTF. On wetter boards with high cards you bet about 2/3 w/ range on the flop. Most lower boards you will usually just x/f the flop. To protect your checking range sometimes mix in some flop x/r's with a mix of the nuts and big draws. On the turn if you bet the flop follow through with bigger hands and draws or things like BDFD that picked up equity. Sometimes you can x/c turns if you are afraid of getting raised although your sets and top two can protect against that. Other times if you have like AA on something like Q962 you can x/jam the turn, etc.
If you are constantly getting in 3 bet pots oop with a dominated range then it doesn't really matter how you play your range when you both flop top pair on a dry board. You are going to be in a lot of trouble. How often should we call down? How often do we check/fold as hero did? Well it suddenly becomes a lot more folding when your seeing how strong the pool's flatting ranges are for 3 bets. If we always fold top pair (probably quite reasonable) then is 3 betting any good? Doesn't seem great to me. 3 betting this is way better IP.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 291
If you are constantly getting in 3 bet pots oop with a dominated range then it doesn't really matter how you play your range when you both flop top pair on a dry board. You are going to be in a lot of trouble. How often should we call down? How often do we check/fold as hero did? Well it suddenly becomes a lot more folding when your seeing how strong the pool's flatting ranges are for 3 bets. If we always fold top pair (probably quite reasonable) then is 3 betting any good? Doesn't seem great to me. 3 betting this is way better IP.
It is hard, but i think this dominated situations dont come up that often as we think when both players hit tp. And from J it is not that hard to get away. I guess in 15% we hit tp so it should be less then 10% of postlop situations for sure that both hit tp . Of couse there is aces and kings which he propably 4 bets and ak mostly too. Kq suited only calls.Sometimes maybe kq. It is not end of the world .
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 02:33 PM
One thing that maybe all can agree on is cbet 1/3 to 1/2...

Main point from me is if you 3bet this hand to fold to this action you are maybe better off not 3betting. FWIW think the fold is better than calling to call rivers versus most of the pool.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-03-2019 , 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugh317
Although it might be oft repeated I've seen much conflicting advice about hands like this. For example a number of the stickied threads from very experienced, winning players advocate against 3-betting hands like this because of the issue of being dominated postflop. Could 1 of you (as you seem to be decent and intelligent posters) do me the favour of explaining why you think it's an obvious 3-bet spot?

Do you actually expect to be called by KTo, QJo, JTo type hands enough for it to be a 3-bet for value? Or do you think the advantage of having the initiative postflop is more important than the domination issue? Because at the moment my standard is to 3-bet QQ+ (JJ depending on villain), AQ+ and KQ for value while 3-betting 22-77 and some low SC as a bluff. Can you explain why this is a significant leak?
Short answer is because if you're lucky, everybody folds and you get to win a 7.5bb pot uncontested.

I don't think flatting KJs in a vacuum is terrible. I'd mix in flats heads up in a low/no rake environment (eg. MTTs). It's playable and dominates several hands etc. However you seem hellbent on keeping dominated hands in. I'd suggest that's not as great an outcome as you think. They will use the advantage of position to move you off the pot when you both miss. When you both flop pairs, they will be cautious due to the average winning hand being stronger mw than hu and will prevent you from getting serious money in the pot. When they improve to 2p+, they will punish you when you flop top pair. Moreover KJ performs better in a low SPR pot, heads up, your one pair is worth more.

CO open, BTN flat is the weakest 2-player VPIP formation we can ever face. Dead money. Why should they force us to accept playing post from the nut worst seat? But we don't have enough traditional value combos to punish these weak ranges so why not use a hand with nice blockers to 4b combos and excellent playability if called. We're just pushing our equity and denying equity, running cards is secondary, we are effectively making our opponents an offer theyll to accept at an exploitably high rate "You opened the CO and are rarely strong, BTN you are damn near dead money bye. I have the strongest hand/range. Forfeit the 7.5bb pot and lets move on to the next hand or pay X"

You don't want action pre. Not oop with hands worse than AKs, QQ. Janda proved so in his latest book. So let's stop trying to induce actual poker to break out.

Last edited by bearer; 05-03-2019 at 04:44 PM.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-05-2019 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearer
Short answer is because if you're lucky, everybody folds and you get to win a 7.5bb pot uncontested.

I don't think flatting KJs in a vacuum is terrible. I'd mix in flats heads up in a low/no rake environment (eg. MTTs). It's playable and dominates several hands etc. However you seem hellbent on keeping dominated hands in. I'd suggest that's not as great an outcome as you think. They will use the advantage of position to move you off the pot when you both miss. When you both flop pairs, they will be cautious due to the average winning hand being stronger mw than hu and will prevent you from getting serious money in the pot. When they improve to 2p+, they will punish you when you flop top pair. Moreover KJ performs better in a low SPR pot, heads up, your one pair is worth more.

CO open, BTN flat is the weakest 2-player VPIP formation we can ever face. Dead money. Why should they force us to accept playing post from the nut worst seat? But we don't have enough traditional value combos to punish these weak ranges so why not use a hand with nice blockers to 4b combos and excellent playability if called. We're just pushing our equity and denying equity, running cards is secondary, we are effectively making our opponents an offer theyll to accept at an exploitably high rate "You opened the CO and are rarely strong, BTN you are damn near dead money bye. I have the strongest hand/range. Forfeit the 7.5bb pot and lets move on to the next hand or pay X"

You don't want action pre. Not oop with hands worse than AKs, QQ. Janda proved so in his latest book. So let's stop trying to induce actual poker to break out.
Thanks for taking the time to post this and I agree with almost everything you've said. Actually I think you've given a very good argument for 3-betting low SCs and 1-2 gappers as bluffs.

But why are we effectively turning KJs into a bluff? Against average unknowns at 5NL we should be able to smash them with a hand this strong even out of position. We can get good value when we hit top pair, get away when opponents show obvious strength and make the odd move when they show weakness. Instead we're planning to 3-bet and be basically committed when we hit top pair despite folding out most hands we beat barring draws.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote
05-05-2019 , 04:32 PM
For you to get the kind of value from dominated hands that would make flatting appetising (and make up for bad outcomes) I think you'd need to be x/r KJ on some Kxx and Kxxx. Y'all doing that?

The bigger your skill edge, the more hands you can profitably flat. I think KJs would be a profitable flat here for most players in this subforum but that 3b would be more profitable. The better you are relative to opponents, the more you can close that gap or maybe even make flatting more profitable.

As for flopping top pair in a 3b pot, yeah you're gonna get you shyt fcked up. That's why poker sucks. Good news is micro players are passive and scared so will not value bet as thinnly and remorselessly as they should with hands like KQ or AJ to really harm you.

Last edited by bearer; 05-05-2019 at 04:56 PM.
NL5z Uncomfortable spot w TP Quote

      
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