bovada ?

wtf does that mean? who cares what site it's on?

fyi I play on two mainstream sites.

because the site dictates the majority of the difficulty of the game, I'll take it you're on bovada and 888.

dude I told you i'm on two mainstream sites. if I could make more on those sites I would move though. maybe i'll look into it. thanks for the tip. been a pleasure talking to you.

I wish you would quote properly so I could quote you properly but anyway in regards to your response:

1. Leading allows us to guarantee a bet is going in which takes the advantage away from villain to avoid cbetting things that might have showdown value but aren't worth a bet with a fish in the pot (i.e. anything less than JJ probably...maybe less than QQ).
2. Leading is a strategy that targets the weakest player in the pot which is likely where the most EV is coming from.
3. Spacecakezz wasn't expecting anyone to spazz, but leading allows them the opportunity to do so. The nonzero percent of the time that happens might add a decent amount of EV to the line considering how a spazz bloats the pot and 'commits' villain psychologically.
4. I think you're overestimating how often the reg cbets air into a fish and a reg on this flop.

I think you're being overly abraisive for some reason even when the lines probably differ ALMOST insignificantly in EV.

3bet pre

Flop x/r is too small, but our line should be c/c anyway.

Sent from my VS870 4G

jrtblake I've never even come across you before on the forums but just_grindin and spacecakezzz I've seen before and generally post solid advice. You are so narrow minded though it's unbelievable and you'll never improve your game when you can't fathom to use different lines to maximally exploit your opponent.

c/c flop, c/r flop and donking flop are all viable options. I wouldn't use any 1 particular line 100% of the time and I think to always c/c here with 100% of your range is just a terrible way to try and maximise your ev in this situation. Suppose the reg has AQ - how do you think he's going to play his hand? Bet/bet/bet because lol we're capped most of the time? And you think this is way more likely then him spazzing off to a donk lead? What if fish calls as well - is he going to continue trying to bluff the fish off his hand?

What do you think villain perceives our donk lead to be? Or our c/r range to be? An aggressive villain with really high 3 barrel stats is going to be thinking "hang on, if he had a strong hand he would let me barrel" Therefore, he can't be strong here and he reacts accordingly - maybe by re-bluffing or just bluff catching. Or if he doesn't think like this and just plays fit/fold facing aggression then is it not a great spot to donk lead bluff and get a lot of folds?

Limiting yourself to c/c all the time only allows 1 way to win the pot. This is basic poker strategy. Being the aggressor gives you 2 ways of winning the pot. Not incorporating it into your game-plan just really sucks.

that's great, I don't care.

Donking flop is not viable, it amounts to nothing more than praying the fish has connected with a board that he probably hasn't, it is neither exploitatively successful or gto,you need sets in your c/c range here , most people at these levels aren't good enough to see this and so I would imagine V interprets a donk lead as strength, since we have no real reason to bluff into two people and a small pot there's also very little he can call us with, if V has something like KJ, which is at the upper end of his range, he ha sa hard time calling multiple streets against our donk lead and we've now gone from praying for the fish to have magically connected to now praying that V magically bluff catches, this is beyond awful.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone without a missing chromosome that I don't c/c with 100 % of my range here.

You invalidate your own point because if V bets and the fish calls, this is great for us.Any card above a ten is a great barrel card for V , so yes, it is multiple times more likely than a random spazz. Yes, donk leading would be an effective although strange bluff/ semi-bluff line, doing it with 78 actually wouldn't be bad

Please don't condescend to me, I am a much better poker player than you will ever be. Obviously I do not c/c all the time. Funnily enough, when we have sets, raising to get folds isn't really relevant, who'd have thought it !?!?!? I also do not c/c with 100 % of my range or use it as my only line, the fact you even think this is ridiculous, just leave.

conclusion : you are terrible.

Hi Wheelie, . Ivanovic I will play you heads up on 4 tables at a limit of your choice or I will flip you a coin for your entire net worth.

**If our check call range is almost just straight draws , 6x, 5x, 77 88 ,99, 1010 +(would 3bpre) we are struggling against an opponent who is capable of barrelling scarecards (about half the deck ), and as such we need to strengthen and balance said range by including sets and 2p hands. Justin Bonomo wrote something in bluff magazine explaining why this is better than x/ring on dry boards which V probably won't have connected to, but you are such an excellent microstake player that logic , the opinion of a MSNL reg, a HSNL reg and Franchise804 are obviously wrong , keep losing at those micros Ivan **, hope this helps the OP, I'm not even considering donking as it is laughable.

Tough to get off that hand. The only true read you had was on the turn when he reraised. Still 95% of players just can't let that one go. Obviously hand history and knowing your opponent comes into account. Ouch

Seriously I'm not even advocating the donking line just trying to illustrate the thoughts/scenarios that lead people to want to recommend it in this spot.

jtr did you use to troll in another forum and now they ignore you so you have had to move on to a part of the forum where they don't know you? Any way I'll be sure to continue to read your expert advice to improve my game.

As played, it's a fold OTT. Or a call and fold all non-board pairing rivers (but that's risky because villain can have KK/66). I mean, you flopped bottom set, but what are you beating when he raises?

You might even be really sick and call, intending to shove a spade river as a bluff. But that's far too risky and relies on your opponent being able to fold a set/straight (which 99.99% of villains are never doing).

can't quote, should be a call on turn with intention of c/f river unimproved though smoky, justgrinding you probably should take my advice bc you're clueless broski

a fish doesn't have to connect to call a lead here. fish call with all kinds of nonsense. a fish is more likely to call with total trash to your lead than when you check to the btn and reg bets and you call.

if the fish does have a monster (K5, K6, 56), you have potential to get a LOT of chips in right now by leading rather than risking a flop check back and risking the fish potentially being scared to xr here or in his mind slowplaying something and just calling.

KJ is not the top of btn's range. he will have all 2 pairs, AA (and obv the two sets that beat us). He is going to call the flop with any K he has. the turn card can give him backdoor draws or two pair (with which he will continue calling with some of his lower Kings). KJ is gonna call turn all day. btw if he has K7, he's not going to bet 3 times and call a xr. he might even check back the flop which really sucks. i mean when you check/call, is the reg gonna put you on 33 and try to blow you off? is he gonna barrel 99 3 times?

and yes there is something to be said for hoping someone else has a big hand. that's pretty valuable in poker when you have someone coolered and you get in a ton of chips.

btw leading with 78 is pretty risky since if you get raised you can't call. I would prefer to balance my leading range with gutshots that I don't want to call with...so you can lead 89s here and you'll be able to continue on a bunch of turns. (you can lead 78 if you know the reg is going to attack your donk and you want to have a 3 betting range...or I guess if you know he is SUPER nitty to donks).

you will still have a ton of hands you can check call. you'll prob have KT, KJ, KQ? K9s? 56, 67, 78, 77, 88...and you can call with stuff like A4s A7s ATs? QJs? with backdoor draws if you think villain is really light. a good chunk of the deck on the turn lets you xr or check call.

that's almost all logically and mathematically wrong ,you've missed my points completely

the fish will not call with some random air 99% of the time , sorry,

He probably doesn't FFS,you fail to understand the basic fact that 65 % of flops miss any given player, if he does he will bet it himself, you can use whatever ridiculous justification you want " OMG the fish will ship it in with 7-2 offsuit if we lead ! ", it's still based on randomly hoping and praying he's connected. V checking back the flop does not suck at all it means he almost always has SDV and we can now bomb the turn and river, also allows fish to potentially get some SDV which is good.

I said near the top, not the top. I would be struggling to call the turn / river with KJ as it's essentially a bluff-catcher vs a donk into two people. How many combos of AA and K5 K7 are there ? Again, just a ridiculous hope and pray he has something, your justifications are contrived, unrealistic and combinatorically unlikely, like 5 % of the time we will donk into two people and one of them will magically have something which decides to bluffcatch all the way to the river, but this does not mean it is +EV relative to c/c since the vast majority of the time we're betting and getting two folds on this board and even things that are near the top of his range have trouble calling down multiple streets, you can't seem to comprehend this.

We're struggling to cooler anything with 3rd set , praying for a cooler is not a recognized strategy afaik.

I don't know what Vs flop raise range vs a 2 player donk lead is at all, nor do I know what our perceived range would be since I never see good players doing it, presuming strength since it would be a weird weird spot to bluff. I also question your soberness when you say that he would check back the flop with K7

The last paragraph shows your basic lack of understanding, I explain in detail why if our c/c range is predominantly single pair hands that are vulnerable to half the deck we need to include stronger hands to balance it out / stengthen it, and you respond with.......... we can c/c with these weak hands . A lot of what you mentioned would 3b pre and does not have many combos, and you don'tucomprehend or consider that if this is our perceived c/c range V will be incentivised to barrel anything above a ten.

In conclusion : You're still clueless, don't respond unless you want a heads-up game.

Lol dickswinger in the uNL forum.
Leading flop is fine, and spacecakezzz logic makes sense.

It's not important that someone is right 100% or not when they discuss, because it's called a ****ing discussion.

I'm a nit, so take my advice for what it's worth. I do like donking the flop and taking the lead multiway. We're not guaranteed any extra bets if we just check to the pfr. Also, players simply don't know how to react to donk bets. Even regs.

As played (I haven't looked at results) call his turn raise and fold unimproved. If we improve to a boat, then I think we can GII OTR since we take away one of his plausible hands (87). If we don't, we've gotta fold. This is a case of what do we beat given the line that villain has taken? He flats a x/r and then raises on an innocuous turn card that helps a hand he could have. Villain is more likely to play his big pair hands more passively than this. So it's either pure air or nuts. I'm leaning more towards nutty hands.

it's definitely not fine, c/c is 100000 % better, but surprise surprise, the guy that thinks he can beat Phil Galfond because he beats 500nl has come into the thread, indulge your inferiority complex somewhere else please

lol just bc cc is hypothetically better, it doesnt mean leading isnt fine. I also love how you initally told spacecakez that no one who plays above micro stakes would agree w him yet the opposite is true, lol you.

So you've just admitted that c/c is better,thus agreeing with my points, I don 't think any MSNL regs would say that leading > cc, yet you feel the need to come into the thread and find an internet argument, find something better to do with your life, the extent of your keyboard warrior-ness is just pathetic

I guess you missed where i used the word hypothetically, i didnt say cc was better, i just said assuming it is better it does make leading not fine. And lol at keyboard warrior, i guess you forgot what you did itt, typing out essay long responses in the most pointless argument ever

it is a lot better unless you can offer a cogent argument otherwise.

I don't typically get into internet arguments, I have significantly better things to do with my life, for example I only joined this forum to investigate a sports-betting business I could invest in ,, whereas I rarely see you doing something other than getting into random arguments to prove you're better at online poker than other people..... on the internet, who you shall never meet, it's very sad really, just go outside, chill out, maybe get some real life friends to go out with, your inferiority complex may subside one day

Thanks for the life advice but my 2p2 friends are enough