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NL50 How awful bluff is this? NL50 How awful bluff is this?

03-19-2011 , 04:08 AM
Villain is fishy, c-betting allmost 100% flops i think i have a read that 2$ c-bet is weaker than 1.50$. I havent raised mutch at all wo a hand. Do u shove river if another overcard hits? Its obv we never fold out Qx. I dont like turn ck/c either bc i have the initiative and i dont want to give away this.

Full Tilt Poker $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players - View hand 1238319
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN/SB: $50.00
Hero (BB): $50.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with 7 A
BTN/SB raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.00) 6 Q 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $2.00, Hero raises to $6, BTN/SB calls $4

Turn: ($15.00) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $9.50, BTN/SB raises to $19, Hero calls $9.50

River: ($53.00) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $23.50, Hero folds
NL50 How awful bluff is this? Quote
03-19-2011 , 04:34 AM
i think it is OK. i would not plan to do anything on rivers besides get money in if we hit the flush
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03-19-2011 , 05:31 AM
prob better to fold flop, yes we have BD equity but we arent gonna be able to get this villian off a hand a ton with our turn barrells if hes cally. good spot to raise flop vs thinking player buut vs someone who plays there hand strength not very good.

turn is played okay as we have a ton of implied odds and pot odds
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03-19-2011 , 11:19 AM
Dunno if I like the flop raise. He might have a hard time putting you on hands like QT+ if you've been 3betting a fair amount, and youre not really repping trips or 2pair either, since the typical nl50 player prolly just call those hands. I also think this flop hits his range more than yours. As played i'll fold turn.
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03-19-2011 , 11:20 AM
i would 3 bet preflop cause ace 7 is almlost always ahead of a button raise and if u call your out of position and really there is no good card u can see exept an ace or dimands on the flop
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03-19-2011 , 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBdeffender
i would 3 bet preflop cause ace 7 is almlost always ahead of a button raise and if u call your out of position and really there is no good card u can see exept an ace or dimands on the flop
3beting Ax lower than T kicker vs fish is bad imo.
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03-19-2011 , 11:47 AM
Your flop raise is not great. If he is constantly c-betting he is used to people playing back at him on dry flops with air. He sounds like a spewtard that isnt going to fold out much anyway. The best way to play these guys is to play your made hands strong, vb thin, and make them pay to chase draws.

Your turn sizing is also too small for a legit hand imo. Your draw seems pretty transparent. I like $11 or $12 on the turn.

I dont think he is ever folding to a shove on the river. His turn sizing is begging you to call. I expect he has a made hand by riv almost always.
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03-19-2011 , 11:54 AM
If I had a read the guy was bluffing I would only call the 3 streets
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03-20-2011 , 12:56 AM
C/r flop is good. We have good back doors and 1 over and the flop shouldn't hit him too hard. Turn barrel/call is fine vs. his small raise. River fold or get money in if we hit.
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03-20-2011 , 03:40 AM
pick a more scary/drawy looking board where you would actually raise a set on
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03-20-2011 , 05:30 AM
This line is fine/good and everyone telling you its not is being results oriented. He is a fish who cbets too often: that is enough for a check raise to almost always be at least a decent play. I am assuming you aren't just check raising a ridiculous amount of the time meaning he likely just stopped folding to them (though if he just folds a ton then don't stop). Thus, this individual hand is fine. Just take a look into how much you'd been check raising him recently.
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03-20-2011 , 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel
This line is fine/good and everyone telling you its not is being results oriented. He is a fish who cbets too often: that is enough for a check raise to almost always be at least a decent play. I am assuming you aren't just check raising a ridiculous amount of the time meaning he likely just stopped folding to them (though if he just folds a ton then don't stop). Thus, this individual hand is fine. Just take a look into how much you'd been check raising him recently.
this
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03-20-2011 , 07:35 AM
You can get a lot of free rivers if you check turn. If he bets something gay then just cr all in.
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03-20-2011 , 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel
This line is fine/good and everyone telling you its not is being results oriented. He is a fish who cbets too often: that is enough for a check raise to almost always be at least a decent play. I am assuming you aren't just check raising a ridiculous amount of the time meaning he likely just stopped folding to them (though if he just folds a ton then don't stop). Thus, this individual hand is fine. Just take a look into how much you'd been check raising him recently.
we have sdv on dry flop so ck/c and depending on his barreling tendencies/turn cards ck/c ott too
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03-20-2011 , 10:26 AM
If villain clued in to the fact that you, as you said, usually raise with a hand, and assuming that you've shown down a hand a few times against villain, and he called your check-raise on the flop, then raised you on the turn...

You shouldn't have even made it to the river. You should have folded on the turn and then get ready to take your money back the next time you have AA on an Axxr flop.
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03-20-2011 , 11:17 AM
Quote:
we have sdv on dry flop so ck/c and depending on his barreling tendencies/turn cards ck/c ott too
If we give him 80% of hands preflop and he still has the same 80% after he cbets then our equity against his range is 50% on the flop. I just did a quick stove and half of his range here has no pair. Thus, unless our opponent is going to float us a ton (which is hard for a fish to do on that board), we should expect folds enough of the time that we expect to break even on our raise. Now we are free rolling with ~19% equity and we can have a clear plan to follow up on some turn cards (IE diamonds, 5, maybe 10+, or check decide on a 7 and certainly an A). Maybe you can get him to fold out his 4s and 6s or lower pocket pair hands on the turn.

The cost of this, then, is that we immediately about break even (we risk 6 to win 5, air makes up about enough of his range that we expect about this many folds). This is giving ourselves slightly worse immediate odds than the check call play (since we risk 2 to win 5 with 50% equity). But what are some of the advantages? Well first of all all of his "air" hands still had 30% equity versus our A high, and we protect against that. We also negate our positional disadvantage and start making him guess with mostly marginal hands (based on his cbet %) instead of us doing the guessing with our very marginal hand. We also help our image for the future when we have a set or two pair or whatever else here and want to get a lot of action - it will improve our image for other spots as well. Also, the times we do get a backdoor something - after he called the flop and turn - we can be pretty confident that he has a Qx at this point and our implied odds are going to be quite good.

I think both lines are good/fine here. However, against a fish that 1: cbets too often 2: likely isn't going to 3 bet bluff the flop almost ever and 3: doesn't realize that we rep pretty much nothing, I'd argue that the check raise line is slightly more optimal, even with a decent ace high hand. I like your line a whole lot more if we had, say, A9o here because our free roll equity is now a decently worse 15% and we don't really have any plan on future cards.

Also, OP's line obviously sucks if the fish is known to just jam pairs on the turn or floats crazy wide (though this isn't a big disaster... just fire more turns than I mentioned above), and so on... but most fish are not doing these things.

Finally I should mention that the best way to counter a guy who is cbetting too often is to start check raising him a lot and with a balanced range. IE: Most of your flop continuing range should be a check raise instead... there is now just that much more dead money in the pot while ranges are still super wide. Just floating a lot is certainly *not* a good way to counter a guy who cbets a ton (at least in my mind).

Last edited by Kardnel; 03-20-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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03-20-2011 , 12:17 PM
Hand played totally fine. wp
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03-20-2011 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardnel
Finally I should mention that the best way to counter a guy who is cbetting too often is to start check raising him a lot and with a balanced range. IE: Most of your flop continuing range should be a check raise instead... there is now just that much more dead money in the pot while ranges are still super wide. Just floating a lot is certainly *not* a good way to counter a guy who cbets a ton (at least in my mind).
this implies that the best way to counter an 100% button opener is by 3betting 40% lol.

ok, i feel u, tx for the reply
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