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04-22-2011 , 03:04 PM

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

this guy was 19/15, pretty agressive PF and blind stealer, specially BTN and SB

hard time dealing with those turn/river cards
could I have played better?

Full Tilt - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: $57.00
MP: $62.10
CO: $29.15
BTN: $56.70
Hero (SB): $83.35
BB: $43.05
UTG: $52.90

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has K

fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $1.50, Hero calls $1.25, fold

Flop: ($3.50, 2 players) 7

Hero checks, BTN bets $2.00, Hero raises to $8.00, BTN calls $6.00

Turn: ($19.50, 2 players) 8

Hero bets $14.00, BTN calls $14.00

River: ($47.50, 2 players) T

Hero checks, BTN checks

Spoiler:

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04-22-2011 , 03:08 PM

an0nymous

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 611

Yes you could have played this better: I would start by c/c flop, and if you c/r and bet turn, are you betting turn for value or bluff? What are you valuebetting, flushdraws? What do you do if blank hits the river?

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04-22-2011 , 03:18 PM

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by an0nymous

Yes you could have played this better: I would start by c/c flop

I think c/c is a very bad option
there are about 25 scare cards in the deck
how are you going to play the turn? check/fold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by an0nymous

and if you c/r and bet turn, are you betting turn for value or bluff? What are you valuebetting, flushdraws?

most hands that he would just call the reraise on the flop
(flush draws, weak 9)
he could also fold A9 and some overpairs (although he's not very likely to have those hands)

Quote:

Originally Posted by an0nymous

What do you do if blank hits the river

most likely c/c

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04-22-2011 , 04:59 PM

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

uhm wow, where do I begin
fold pre, your hand is crap and he is aggressive pf, how do you ever expect to go to showdown
c/f flop a million ugly turns and rivers, c/r because you can't c/c is pretty suicidal too, why do you want to win the hand by any cost
c/f turn, you have showdown value and are turning your hand into a bluff, he can realistically c/ with a draw
good thing you didn't barrel river too, that would've been the final nail in the coffin

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04-22-2011 , 05:14 PM

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

uhm wow, where do I begin
fold pre, your hand is crap and he is aggressive pf, how do you ever expect to go to showdown

that's not a bad idea, but I need to take a stand sometimes... or should I be giving up the blinds unless I have top 8% hands? that would be very profitable for him

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

c/f flop a million ugly turns and rivers, c/r because you can't c/c is pretty suicidal too, why do you want to win the hand by any cost

if I call the blinds to take a stand and then fold top pair K kicker that's even better for him

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

c/f turn, you have showdown value and are turning your hand into a bluff, he can realistically c/ with a draw

I agree here
but I'd go more towards c/c turn, depending on the bet size

he knows the 8 is a scare card and would bet all weak hands (and probably check with hands with showdown value)

and even if I have to c/f river, he'd have to risk more chips and will notice it won't be too easy to steal blinds

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04-22-2011 , 05:21 PM

goranbaxy

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,362

Do you know how top 8% looks like? Do you know where in that percentage is K9o?

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04-22-2011 , 05:26 PM

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

^ok, don't take stands
nobody is targeting you, he's prob playing 8 tables and couldn't care less
he is not after YOUR blind
he sees a pretty hand OTB and raises because he knows it's profitable
however, he can outplay you in so many ways postflop with position, that calling with that hand is most def burning money even for very good players

about the turn, the reason you can easily c/f turn is because he is not betting 2p and sets that have showdown value because he would likely have to fold if you raise again. He might bluff with a flush draw, but I think that's rare, usually he checks that behind.

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04-22-2011 , 05:27 PM

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by goranbaxy

Do you know how top 8% looks like? Do you know where in that percentage is K9o?

K9o is top 30%, his hand is top 60%

anyway, the question stands
he's stealing a lot of blinds... should I fight back only with top 8% (then he can easily fold those times)?

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04-22-2011 , 05:30 PM

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

I think that makes sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

about the turn, the reason you can easily c/f turn is because he is not betting 2p and sets that have showdown value because he would likely have to fold if you raise again. He might bluff with a flush draw, but I think that's rare, usually he checks that behind.

that too, as long as he thinks about the c/r possibility

but it's veeery rare to c/r flop AND turn
I've never seen anyone doing that

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04-22-2011 , 05:47 PM

#10

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavelot

K9o is top 30%, his hand is top 60%

anyway, the question stands
he's stealing a lot of blinds... should I fight back only with top 8% (then he can easily fold those times)?

you can "fight back" by re-stealing, although, again, don't make it personal, the reason to do it is because it's profitable until he adjusts

what I do vs multi-tabling guys who have a high steal frequency and DO NOT continue with SCs and PPs is 3b the crap out of them with pretty much any 2cards.

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04-22-2011 , 05:59 PM

#11

TWilly89

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavelot

K9o is top 30%, his hand is top 60%

anyway, the question stands
he's stealing a lot of blinds... should I fight back only with top 8% (then he can easily fold those times)?

calling this raise pre with k9o isn't taking a stand, it's giving him a reason to raise more often as you will be making unprofitable calls OOP with junk.

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04-22-2011 , 08:17 PM

#12

Ligic

banned

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,777

fold pre

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04-23-2011 , 12:55 AM

#13

hyp0h

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 570

LOL every street is misplayed. Fold pre, c/c flop, check turn, bluff river.

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04-23-2011 , 12:59 AM

#14

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyp0h

LOL every street is misplayed. Fold pre, c/c flop, check turn, bluff river.

very profitable play if we can see his holecards

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04-23-2011 , 01:13 AM

#15

Take_Pills

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 199

kavelot why are you posting if you're going to argue with everyones advice? your points are so arbitrary as well... ionutd never suggested that you only fight back with top 8% range so i don't know where you came up with that. If you want to fight back you should 3bet pre not flat since you're going to get outplayed post flop if you flat unless you do it with premium hands and know you're not dominated. Try 3betting medium pairs then betting out on any flop or 3betting suited connectors and playing fit/fold on the flop (playing draws agressively). K9o is not a good hand as it doesn't play well against any part of his range.

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04-23-2011 , 03:33 AM

#16

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Take_Pills

I was just asking when I should flat/raise

I'm not arguing with everyone, and I agreed with the fold pre after this discussion
I just think c/c and bluff river is result oriented... this check/call on the flop is pretty likely to be a flush draw
so I don't think it's very clever to bluff when the flush actually comes

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04-23-2011 , 06:57 AM

#17

DuTchMen

grinder

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 640

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavelot

check/call on the flop is pretty likely to be a flush draw
so I don't think it's very clever to bluff when the flush actually comes

that doenst make sense at all
your repping a flushdraw/straightdraw but dont rep the straight/flush when it comes?

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04-23-2011 , 12:00 PM

#18

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuTchMen

that doenst make sense at all
your repping a flushdraw/straightdraw but dont rep the straight/flush when it comes?

IMO he's repping the flush draw
bet, get raised, just call... on a very scare board
I can see many players doing that with a flush draw (specially when you can hit a straight

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04-23-2011 , 12:03 PM

#19

Ligic

banned

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,777

this is not very good readless, but can be alright

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04-23-2011 , 12:08 PM

#20

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

btw
don't you think his call was pretty bad?
unless he was thinking about bluffing... but that's a pretty advanced move for those levels

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04-23-2011 , 01:22 PM

#21

Take_Pills

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavelot

btw
don't you think his call was pretty bad?
unless he was thinking about bluffing... but that's a pretty advanced move for those levels

if his call is bad then your raise is worse since he's calling with nothing worse.

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04-23-2011 , 01:25 PM

#22

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Take_Pills

if his call is bad then your raise is worse since he's calling with nothing worse.

like he did? (I'm aware I'm not playing top players at those levels)
and he's also calling with draws

Last edited by kavelot; 04-23-2011 at 01:32 PM.

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04-23-2011 , 01:29 PM

#23

kavelot

enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 82

btw
I think we agreed that fold the flop was better here
but let's suppose you got in this position in another way (let's say I was BB and he just flat button)

is there an agreement on how to play flop?

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04-23-2011 , 02:39 PM

#24

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

^couldn't agree less mate

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04-23-2011 , 03:14 PM

#25

Blaaz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,853

Quote:

Originally Posted by kavelot

very profitable play if we can see his holecards

yeah folding pre sure would be a good idea if you could see his hole cards

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