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NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets

01-08-2012 , 09:06 AM
Ok, villain is a LAG, not saying he is good.

765 hands, 30/25 and a 4.4 AF

Details:



Here is the hand:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($19.67)
BB ($8.75)
UTG ($33.26)
UTG+1 ($26.76)
Hero ($27.22)
BTN ($25)

Dealt to Hero T T

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.85, BTN raises to $2.45, fold, fold,

Hero?
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 09:14 AM
yeah I hate this spot
you can 4b/call but then you have no idea if his 5b range is not JJ+,AK, in which case it's bad
and folding sucks
and calling sucks
fml

think I'd fold just because it doesnt make me tilt as much
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 09:44 AM
Do you think he is capable/has 5bet bluffing?
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 09:49 AM
4bet/call.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 09:52 AM
u got reads or just stats?
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 10:11 AM
Main read, he is overly aggro. We have no real history.

This is the only notable hand besides the TT hand.

Not sure why he doesnt have a full stack in this hand.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($25.75)
BB ($32.59)
UTG ($15.76)
UTG+1 ($25.77)
Hero ($36.27)
BTN ($20.13)

Dealt to Hero 4 4

UTG raises to $0.75, fold, Hero calls $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, fold, BB calls $0.50

FLOP ($3.10) J 4 Q

BB bets $0.78, UTG folds, Hero raises to $3.31, BTN raises to $19.38 (AI), BB folds, Hero calls $16.07

TURN ($42.64) J 4 Q 5

RIVER ($42.64) J 4 Q 5 Q

Hero shows 4 4
(Pre 52%, Flop 68.1%, Turn 81.8%)

BTN shows Q K
(Pre 48%, Flop 31.9%, Turn 18.2%)

Hero wins $40.51
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HU4hoes
Do you think he is capable/has 5bet bluffing?
Havent seen him 5bet bluffing, he is spazzy, but seems to have a general idea about equity.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 10:40 AM
Too many potential overcards + OOP to flat - I just 4-bet and hope he goes nuts.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 10:44 AM
4bet/call
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 11:02 AM
yeah i think you need a pretty good handle on how he plays in 3bet pots before flatting is better than 4b/calling.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
Too many potential overcards + OOP to flat - I just 4-bet and hope he goes nuts.
When you say 'goes nuts' you mean jam/5-bet?
With the plan to call shove or jam 50bet?
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 12:20 PM
Calling is no good, I think we all agree on that.

Folding is probably best, I have my doubts that stacking off pre with TT vs. half decent players is profitable at NL25.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($19.67)
BB ($8.75)
UTG ($33.26)
UTG+1 ($26.76)
Hero ($27.22)
BTN ($25)

Dealt to Hero T T

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.85, BTN raises to $2.45, fold, fold, Hero raises to $5.80, BTN raises to $25 (AI), Hero calls $19.20

FLOP ($50.35) 2 7 9

TURN ($50.35) 2 7 9 K

RIVER ($50.35) 2 7 9 K 5

Hero shows T T
(Pre 18%, Flop 10.0%, Turn 4.5%)

BTN shows J J
(Pre 82%, Flop 90.0%, Turn 95.5%)

BTN wins $47.84
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 12:28 PM
4bet/fold save a bi
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 12:46 PM
I'm with Cosmic Baby here. Too marginal to play for stacks. You're racing or dominated more than not.

I'd lean towards 4bet folding, or fold bet jamming dependant on some flops.

Folding pre is not terrible but feels a little passive.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danshiel350
I'm with Cosmic Baby here. Too marginal to play for stacks. You're racing or dominated more than not.

I'd lean towards 4bet folding, or fold bet jamming dependant on some flops.

Folding pre is not terrible but feels a little passive.
+1
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 01:30 PM
don't think 4b/f is an option vs this guy
when everything sucks
folding is 0 ev
I've burned so much money in these spots where I thought the standard mathematically logical play 2-3 years ago was any good
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 01:47 PM
i am not 4bet folding vs this guy
and yeah most likely just 4bet get it in
i think you go broke post flop anyway considering the board texture
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
don't think 4b/f is an option vs this guy
when everything sucks
folding is 0 ev
I've burned so much money in these spots where I thought the standard mathematically logical play 2-3 years ago was any good
Are you saying that people have tigher stack off ranges than 2-3 years ago?
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 01:50 PM
oh yes like waaaaaay tighter
QQ+, fewer AK and JJ in my experience at 50nl on stars
not a huge sample size but this has consistently been the case
furthermore, it tilts the **** out of me when I get stubborn and stack off lighter in CO vs BTN, BTN vs blinds cause it's "standard"
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 02:30 PM
I'll 4b/call vs his likely ~10% 3b, we have the math to do so although it's closeish given info and sample size (and hiss individual 3b vs you).

Regardless if he folds we let him know he can't 3b our CO too much and whatever he 5b jams that isn't JJ+, AK is info for us.

Can't really call OOP and let him barrel off vs us when we are often playing guessing games with 2ndpair.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 03:06 PM
He's 3betting a fair amount, has he 3bet YOU before though? What a terrible spot to be in...Calling oop sucks. Folding would make me feel terrible inside. 4bet/calling could be ok if you don't mind some variance and it's good for developing an aggressive image i guess
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 06:29 PM
You've only committed $5.5 as a 4 bet and when you call off a further $20 it's very marginal and almost definitely -EV imo.

I'm genuinely shocked at how many people advocate 4 bet calling w/ 10 10.

I just don't think there is the meta game dynamic or level of reads to justify it.
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote
01-08-2012 , 06:55 PM
You need to defend about 30% of your opening range to avoid being run over by 3bets, so if you're opening like 25% in the CO, TT is just about a 4b/c in GT terms... so vs someone who is clearly playing way more aggro than optimal it becomes a pretty clear 4b/c
NL25 - TT in CO and BTN 3bets Quote

      
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