Nl25 QQ in a very std spot vs unknown - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Nl25 QQ in a very std spot vs unknown

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01-11-2013 , 12:00 AM

Rebuild

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,731

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($24)
BB ($25.35)
Hero ($26)
UTG+1 ($65.22)
CO ($35.08)
BTN ($28.83)

Dealt to Hero Q

Hero raises to $0.70, fold, CO raises to $2.15, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $1.45

FLOP ($4.65) J

Hero checks, CO bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

TURN ($11.65) J

Hero checks, CO bets $8.25, Hero folds

CO wins $11.13

Cant get over this hand somehow. The guy is unknown and at the time I had 25 hands on him he never 3bet so I decided to just call.
OTT I was like should I fold or shove and decided to be a nit.

Normally I would just 4bet here what do you guys think?

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01-11-2013 , 03:06 AM

DoGNeoN

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 123

I understand your frustration here without more information on the player it's hard to range.
There is one inference to make on the player's range given his stack size.. he is likely not a fish, given he's thus far winning and has more than a full stack. So 4betting is probably not a great idea especially without more info, I don't mind flatting the 3bet but I feel like I would be bet/folding the flop rather than c/c, the check call line really gives the villain more incentive to continue on the turn, your hand looks more like a draw to me.

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01-11-2013 , 03:14 AM

ChrisGil

adept

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 736

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGNeoN

+1

Lead the flop. You can still get value from many hands that are unlikely to raise, such as draws due to the SPRs, AJ, TT and possibly even AK. If he has JJ KK or AA he would likely raise, but you could fold for cheap and avoid this tough turn spot.

As played villain could have so much by the turn that you have no idea where you stand. He probably perceives you as drawing so if you call the turn he will probably fire again on the river. I think you have to fold the turn as played. Never shove the turn as played, he will fold all but his biggest draws and only call you when he has you beat.

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01-11-2013 , 03:21 AM

ilovesmokes

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 347

Meh I would probably play it exactly as you did. I don't see the point betting the flop because almost nothing is going to fold so we're just bloating the pot. This is a tough spot OOP and as played I think you lost close to the minimum.

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01-11-2013 , 03:30 AM

ChrisGil

adept

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 736

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovesmokes

Almost nothing will fold? AK, AQ, and 77-99 are gone when we bet (all of which could be in this unknown's range.) TT, diamond draws, and a hand like JTs would call and give us value. AJ would probably call and give value.

For the most part only hands that have us beat can raise. JJ, A

, KK, and AA will definitely raise due to the draws that are out, so we'd know almost for certain where we stand with a bet. You must really enjoy being forced to either fold or bluffcatch if you'd honestly check/call this flop.

Also, we do not necessarily have to bet the turn and "bloat the pot."

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01-11-2013 , 03:36 AM

ilovesmokes

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 347

We must play in different games. A nit might fold AKo with no diamonds. And we can certainly count on a number of draws raising us.

If I'm in position here I'm double or triple barreling a huge part of my range.

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01-11-2013 , 03:42 AM

ChrisGil

adept

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 736

We very well may. Your site's player dynamic might also be very different.

Why would draws raise here given the SPR? To be specific, I'm talking about draws to 9 or less outs, not massive combos. Obviously AKdd or ATdd would raise. Also at 25NL and lower I've almost never seen players raise their draws. I've seen like 3 guys ever do it on my site. Maybe yours is different. I still think a bet is best both to get value from weaker hands and to know if we're beat for cheap. On this kind of board, all hands that have equity over us are almost obligated to raise IMO.

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01-11-2013 , 03:52 AM

ilovesmokes

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 347

I would raise in position specifically because there is very little that hero can call us with. QT is a small part of hero's range if it's in it at all, and overpairs feel increasingly vulnerable to aggression OOP. This is readless. If we knew the villian was a fish I would be more likely to call it down. If the player was your run of the mill tag, I might jam the turn depending on his pf 3bet frequency.

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01-11-2013 , 04:07 AM

Tight Is Right

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 441

this is the most difficult Flop for QQ to play oop.

the problem is that hero doesnt know which Turn cards are improving Villains range.

any

sucks.

any A, K, J, 7 sucks and how happy are we if we are facing a 2nd barrel on a blank like 2

?

4bet pre and get it in.

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01-11-2013 , 04:20 AM

#10

andreassc

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 55

If we give him a really tight 3bet range of TT-AA and AK: we only beat TT, and lose to JJ KK AA. We opened UTG and he should give us some respect! I think he wont always cbet AK here, so we can x/f flop and doesnt feel to bad about it? I dont think that this is wrong vs an unknown. There are better spots to find out whats up. But just tbh, I would call flop in realtime, too.

Last edited by andreassc; 01-11-2013 at 04:28 AM.

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01-11-2013 , 04:29 AM

#11

Tight Is Right

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 441

the problem with c/f Flop is that we are folding the best hand quite often.

AA, KK; JJ = 15 combos
AK = 16 combos

more than 50 % of the time we are folding the better hand if we are c/f.

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01-11-2013 , 04:48 AM

#12

holtomigLAN

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 167

Against unknown its always a 4bet pre. Plus if you consider nl25 games are usually aggressive he'll 3bet with a wider range here esp. if hes a winning reg. 4bet and get it in. As played, b/f flop.

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01-11-2013 , 04:53 AM

#13

Rebuild

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2,731

So whats the GTO optimal here vs a 100% unknown. I play zoom only so I really wonder I dont think its 4b+get it in because people at these limits usually dont shove <KK CO vs UTG from what I see.

Any suggestions?

Last edited by Rebuild; 01-11-2013 at 05:07 AM.

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01-11-2013 , 05:13 AM

#14

Tight Is Right

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 441

I play Zoom too.

vs. unknowns I 4bet get it in, especially if they arent full stacked.

vs. Zoom nits with 9/7; 10/8 stats and low 3bet %, I just fold, because their range vs. utg is KK+ exclusively.

vs. zoom regs it depends.

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01-11-2013 , 07:43 AM

#15

Boolean

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,480

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebuild

Call with the top 30% of your range, fold the rest.

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01-11-2013 , 08:07 AM

#16

Franchise804

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,274

pre is fine

flop is fine

shoving turn does not accomplish anything imo, so just x/c

x/f any river except Q obv

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