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NL25 Line check w/ set NL25 Line check w/ set

03-18-2008 , 09:24 PM
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $45.30
CO: $25.00
BTN: $5.35
SB: $25.15
Hero (BB): $29.60
UTG: $26.65

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with T T
1 fold, MP raises to $1, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.10) T J 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

Turn: ($2.10) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50

River: ($5.10) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks,

Villain hasn't been very spewy. For the most part, he has just been seeing flops and folding to c-bets although it's over a small sample.

Flop: I'm going for the check-raise because I think that the flop hits most of his range, so he will probably c-bet. He also gets all-in with many hands in his range as well so I don't feel it is not just me trying to protect my hand. I didn't want to bet out because I thought that he would be more likely to just call, in which case the pot is very small and I'll have issues with trying to avoid all of the scare cards out there.

Turn: I don't really think he has anything, but he may have a draw. I have to start building a pot sometime...I guess.

River: I read him for a missed draw because I couldn't find any sort of made/showdownable hand being in his range because he would want to bet the flop to protect his hand with something like TP or an overpair right? So, I thought that the only to get value was to check and let him bluff a draw.

Tell me, did I play this one well?
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 09:33 PM
Not betting the flop is bad, even if im 99% sure he'll cbet i still like a donk lead here, bet full pot on the turn, i just bet 4 on the river for value. I think you got way too creative here going for check raises and river checks, its 25NL, betting your big hands for value is enough to be a winner at these stakes.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdwexford
Not betting the flop is bad, even if im 99% sure he'll cbet i still like a donk lead here, bet full pot on the turn, i just bet 4 on the river for value. I think you got way too creative here going for check raises and river checks, its 25NL, betting your big hands for value is enough to be a winner at these stakes.
Okay, please stop taking stupid rules that BBV has made about the micro stakes and quoting them in strategy posts.

Did you even read my reasons why I was planning to check-raise? What were the flaws in my logic? You advocate betting out here even if villain is planning to c-bet on the board 99% of the time. How does that make sense? All a donk-lead accomplishes is keeping the pot small and which will put us in a tough situation on many turn cards.

River: You advocate value betting here...what is a reasonable range for villain that calls a 4/5 pot bet?
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:10 PM
Hmm ive never been in BBV so dont know what that means.
I read your reasons and i still prefer to lead.
Lots of stuff.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers
Okay, please stop taking stupid rules that BBV has made about the micro stakes and quoting them in strategy posts.
Uh, way out of line.

Quote:
Did you even read my reasons why I was planning to check-raise? What were the flaws in my logic?
Well you said:
Quote:
I'm going for the check-raise because I think that the flop hits most of his range, so he will probably c-bet. He also gets all-in with many hands in his range as well so I don't feel it is not just me trying to protect my hand.
That's a flaw in itself. If it's hit a lot of his range, BET. If he has a hand that hit hard, he'll raise. A check-raise just shuts a hand like AJ down in this spot on a very scary board, especially since he seems to be a little on the passive side.

Quote:
River: You advocate value betting here...what is a reasonable range for villain that calls a 4/5 pot bet?
As played, probably not many hands would. A 1/2-2/3rd pot bet? Probably more.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boolean
Uh, way out of line.



Well you said:


That's a flaw in itself. If it's hit a lot of his range, BET. If he has a hand that hit hard, he'll raise. A check-raise just shuts a hand like AJ down in this spot on a very scary board, especially since he seems to be a little on the passive side.



As played, probably not many hands would. A 1/2-2/3rd pot bet? Probably more.
I disagree with this statement. I'm sure that he will certainly bet with a hand like KJ, AJ, or a draw, or whatever. However, because he is on the passive side, I doubt that that he is going to get frisky and try and get all-in on the flop by raising a donk lead with those sort of hands. On the other hand, if I check-raise, I'm pretty sure that I may get a call from him because "TPTK is a good hand" and I doubt he is the type of player that will lay that down. I know he seems a little tight-passive, but I don't think those guys will lay down hands that strong.

Does that make sense?
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:32 PM
Then you're much better off to keep firing than to possibly let free cards come off that can first kill your action and second outdraw you. Check raising here is bad i think. You say the flop hits his range and he gets all in with most of his range. b3b is the way to go here if possible.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdwexford
Then you're much better off to keep firing than to possibly let free cards come off that can first kill your action and second outdraw you. Check raising here is bad i think. You say the flop hits his range and he gets all in with most of his range. b3b is the way to go here if possible.
If I check raise, his line would be "bet/call" most of the time. If I lead out, his line would be just "Call" most of the time. DUCY I like the check-raise?
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers
I disagree with this statement. I'm sure that he will certainly bet with a hand like KJ, AJ, or a draw, or whatever. However, because he is on the passive side, I doubt that that he is going to get frisky and try and get all-in on the flop by raising a donk lead with those sort of hands. On the other hand, if I check-raise, I'm pretty sure that I may get a call from him because "TPTK is a good hand" and I doubt he is the type of player that will lay that down. I know he seems a little tight-passive, but I don't think those guys will lay down hands that strong.

Does that make sense?
It does make sense, but I don't think it's necessarily going to get you the most value off of this villain. You see him calling a flop check-raise, sure, but do you really see him calling a turn and a river bet with AJ or KJ as well? How about if you just lead out? Very likely if he does have AJ or KJ, if you donkbet the flop, I feel he will call you down to the river much more often.

Also, I was thinking about my previous statement regarding a river bet/check. Which do you think is greater here, his calling range, or his betting range? The way this hand went, he has shown no post-flop aggression whatsoever and he isn't terribly aggressive post-flop in general. Against more aggressive players, I'd check in that situation, but against this player, probably not.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailblazers
If I check raise, his line would be "bet/call" most of the time. If I lead out, his line would be just "Call" most of the time. DUCY I like the check-raise?
But if you're sure the flop has hit him there is surely a strong possibility he'll raise a donk lead on such a drawy board, no??

I cant bring myself to check that flop but whatever you think is the optimal way to get him to put as much money in on the flop is the way to go i guess but a cr looks so much stronger than a lead.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boolean
It does make sense, but I don't think it's necessarily going to get you the most value off of this villain. You see him calling a flop check-raise, sure, but do you really see him calling a turn and a river bet with AJ or KJ as well? How about if you just lead out? Very likely if he does have AJ or KJ, if you donkbet the flop, I feel he will call you down to the river much more often.

Also, I was thinking about my previous statement regarding a river bet/check. Which do you think is greater here, his calling range, or his betting range? The way this hand went, he has shown no post-flop aggression whatsoever and he isn't terribly aggressive post-flop in general. Against more aggressive players, I'd check in that situation, but against this player, probably not.
I do see him calling a turn bet after I check-raise if the board doesn't get too nasty because both of us will pretty much be pot-committed when I push and I don't really see him laying down TPTK. So, I really don't seen much of a difference other than that check-raising gets the money in on 2 streets, thus making the situation better by giving the board only one chance to kill our hand/action.

And regarding your question on the river, I honestly can't put him on a range which includes a strong pair that checks the flop, and calls the turn. His range to me looks more like Tx (which folds to a strong river bet), 9x, or a missed draw. So theoretically, his betting range is much higher than his calling range. Maybe, some other factors that should help make the decision are that I'm under-estimating this guy's calling range or under-estimating the randomness of NL25 players (which would change the play on all streets, although I like to make logical assumptions and go from there).
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote
03-18-2008 , 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdwexford
But if you're sure the flop has hit him there is surely a strong possibility he'll raise a donk lead on such a drawy board, no??

I cant bring myself to check that flop but whatever you think is the optimal way to get him to put as much money in on the flop is the way to go i guess but a cr looks so much stronger than a lead.
Not necessarily, if I donk lead, it shows that I have interest in the hand and considering that he is the preflop raiser, that will look strong to him. If I check-raise him, maybe it does look stronger than a lead, but I was unlikely to get significant action from those hands that fold to a check-raise on the later streets anyway.
NL25 Line check w/ set Quote

      
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