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NL25 AQo turn trips decision on river

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12-16-2012 , 04:27 PM

#26

Trisector777

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 452

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

call is fine PF, but I prefer a fold

Can you please expand on this?

He opens 9% of hands from EP, so we should have decent equity. As NJD77 said, this isn't the best way to assess this situation.

So what criteria do I use? His cbet %'s?
Do I fold pre because I don't think I have much of an edge against him, postflop, against his range?

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12-16-2012 , 04:34 PM

#27

Hicham009

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 3,641

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

3bet bluff with AQo is pretty awful but I'm not sure if I want to get into details why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

but I prefer a fold.

We have a villain with a highish f23b, we have a hand with blockers, and you prefer folding to a flat, aren´t these 3 reasons why we could/should be 3b bluffing? If anything I prefer a 3b/fold to any of the other options we have of which calling is by far the worst(IMO).

What I'm trying to say is, if you prefer folding, AQo is like the perfect hand to be 3b bluffing with for reasons mentioned above.

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12-16-2012 , 04:35 PM

#28

NJD77

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 9,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

3bet bluff with AQo is pretty awful but I'm not sure if I want to get into details why.

.

You mean 3b bluffing is awful in this spot or you mean using AQo as a 3b bluff is awful? If its the former then fair enough but if its the latter then it makes no sense to be folding AQo rather than using it as part of your 3b bluff range.

If you're folding AQo then I'm assuming you don't have a 3b bluff range then? It would make no sense to 3b weaker hands than AQo as a bluff whilst folding AQo, after all it does have 2 good blockers, some SDV against a flat and is right at the top of our folding range.

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12-16-2012 , 04:55 PM

#29

woolly

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trisector777

Quote:

Do I fold pre because I don't think I have much of an edge against him, postflop, against his range?

This is why basically. At 100nl this is a hand I play, but at 25nl where rake is higher and there are more fish I think playing AQo against a nit is more marginal and you can just avoid it. That's why I say it's fine but I would just fold and look for a more +EV situation at another table.

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12-16-2012 , 05:08 PM

#30

MartL

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 10,637

Got to say as well I hate the idea of 3betting. If anyone checks their DB you really don't get that many folds against EP opens.

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12-16-2012 , 05:10 PM

#31

woolly

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,109

Like I mentioned, it's a marginal situation at best. When he flats our 3b OOP, AQo is going to be difficult to play. We're going to get into a lot of tricky spots that aren't going to be fun and will be difficult to navigate postflop. We're going to clash with the top of his range sometimes and I prefer avoiding that. I'd prefer 3b bluffing something like QTs/Q9s here where we can barrel equity and we won't run into kicker issues when we flop TP because it's easier to get away from. Kind of just the jist of it, don't really want to get into a deep discussion lol.

on another note, if you're polarizing your 3b range IP AQo shouldn't be in there

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12-16-2012 , 05:27 PM

#32

woolly

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,109

Just to clarify, if you think you have any kind of edge against this player, calling AQo IP is probably slightly +EV and better than folding, but I think there are other, better +EV spots you can find if you're multitabling against opponents where your edge is larger. Should be looking to maximize your edge by combining skill and card advantage but this situation is obviously very marginal when we look at it that way. Instead of focusing on this hand I prefer focusing on the longterm and what is the most +EV play at that moment, and I think folding AQo against this villain is it. I hope that helps.

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12-16-2012 , 06:34 PM

#33

NJD77

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Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 9,542

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

on another note, if you're polarizing your 3b range IP AQo shouldn't be in there

A range can still be polarised and have AQo in it. The polarising part is just whether we are 3betting as a clear bluff or for clear value, as long as we are totally sure which it is, we can quite happily put AQo in our bluff range.

For example, it makes no sense at all to 3b a polarised range of AA/KK/A3s/Q5o and then fold AQo.

Your argument that we run into the top of his range when flatted is true, except because of our blockers, we get called or 4b far less often when we use AQo than when we use Q9s so we just don't have to deal with that situation very often.

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12-16-2012 , 07:38 PM

#34

PokerJuice1

adept

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 747

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartL

If this were 6max theres not a chance we would fold AQ pre here.

Yeah, and if your going to call a nitt tight player, you want to at least have position on V. You def don't want to give up possible hand strength and position. You had pos on him, 7 handed, so I don't fault ur call.

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12-16-2012 , 07:57 PM

#35

PokerJuice1

adept

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 747

Actually trisector777, against a tight player, calling the flop with ur hand is where it can get u n a lot of trouble, coz V can easily have AK,AA or AK all of which puts u N a world of hurt. I'd rather call with 45o, coz I sure don't want to be on his cards, and he sure is not on 45. I would also look for a better +ev than playing AQ against him. But your question was to call or fold the river, and I can't get away from the hand when I hit the 3rd queen on the turn. Your simple call or fold question has turned into a wealth of knowledge. Gl

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12-16-2012 , 08:26 PM

#36

Trisector777

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 452

Time for some threadsavers...

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12-16-2012 , 09:20 PM

#37

PokerJuice1

adept

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 747

Nice

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12-17-2012 , 04:30 AM

#38

EmptyPromises

adept

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 1,170

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolly

You should not be trying to maximize your edge, you should be trying to exploit any and all edges that you have no matter how marginal they are. But you should be trying to maximize your EV which means making the highest EV choices at all points. The highest EV in the long term is simply the sum of all your EV choices in the short term. In other words, folding when either calling or raising is +EV doesn't make sense.

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12-17-2012 , 07:51 AM

#39

ionutd

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Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

if his ep open is tighter and no fish in the blinds, it's a fold pre
post is standard

Quote

12-17-2012 , 07:24 PM

#40

woolly

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmptyPromises

exploit any and all edges that you have no matter how marginal they are. But you should be trying to maximize your EV which means making the highest EV choices at all points.

lol such bad advice for 10nl