Sick Thread...
Thx for all the discussion.
Even if we didn't get to the same point here is a LOT, and I mean a LOT to think about.
And that's what it's all about right.
Raise your game with your own thoughts and this thread sure gives a lot information (that should be thought about, not taken for the truth)

gogo.

Ksight what hands would you 3bet here?

WRONG, are we 3betting this for value or just turning a good hand into a bluff. This hand is a call it plays well enough postflop against a wide range and plays awfully in a 3bet pot OOP.

If you want to add playable hands that really should be 3bet it is mucky gapped suited connector type of hands like 97s and I would only do that if I felt that my opponent folded a reaonable amount of his steals.

I would prefer a fold to a 3bet TBH.

Dam i need to return here when i'm more awake, however my posts we're quoted so what, does everyone generally agree or what?

I noticed some said "Thread = bad advice" but, whose advice is bad and why?

Thanks

Urgh.

You have a better system please go ahead and write it.

KTs is a much better hand to 3bet oop 100bb deep than 97s. High cards play much better than medium connectors. If villain folds to a high % of 3bets we can obv 3bet atc. You basically said that, "97s is much better to 3bet oop than KTs but i only 3bet it against a guy who folds a lot." This is just [ ] logic

And I stand by it, the thing about your KTs hand is that is just AWFUL to 3bet it and is fundamentally against Game Theory. It is ahead of villains opening range and is behind his 3bet calling range, you have gone from a winning proposition to a losing proposition just by overplaying your hand. 97s started off behind villains raising range and is still behind villains 3bet calling range, but except this time you have cleaned up a lot of the dominating hands like A9 K9 Q9 J9 A7 etc... Whilst your raise with KTs has done the reverse it tells K9 to fold and you're not getting rid of KQ,KJs anyway but if he had raised with K5s thats gone too.

Did your mother never tell you DONT 3BET for INFORMATION and you're not 3betting for value ARE YOU?

How can you assume villain wont call me with worse when i 3bet KTs?

If you do it for value it becomes a legitmate 3bet, but I REALLY doubt you would be doing so.

I can easily expect fish/bad regs to call me with QTs, JTs, T9s etc etc.
Even if im essentially "bluffing" i have blockers w KTs, whereas with 97s i dont.
So its essentially a better hand in both ways.

It's thin, and you're right If I expected villain to call with all the above I would rather 3bet KTs than 97s, but given those conditions I really wouldn't be 3betting KTs anyway.

Yea its very thin. 3betting lighter is usually thin in general which is why i adviced people to not try it that much in uNL until they got a grasp on the game and are already beating the micros.

Meh, fwiw, it seems that everyone agrees that 3betting light IP is a lot more profitable than 3betting light OOP, and as a result, your 3bet% IP should be higher than your 3bet% OOP, in which means that unless you have an insane 12%+ 3bet, your 3bet would be first value hands (3-4% total), and about 2-8% air depending on the scenario. Since we've decided that OOP is not the best spot to be 3betting light, we will, if we do 3bet light, 3bet a lower range, about 2-3% air, or 1:1 nut:air.

If that is the case, then, our air 3bet range is extremely narrow, and we should instead of focusing on a specific hand range, find the appropriate scenarios, such as weak players and squeezes, instead of hands, because if we decided to squeeze all suited gappers 50% of the time or so, we'd still come up with something like 3.5-4.5%, which is way more than what we want to 3bet, I assume.

Of course you can also argue that just because 3betting IP is better than 3betting OOP, doesn't mean 3betting is a more usable option IP than OOP. I say this because IP, both flatting AND 3betting are more profitable than OOP. IP is more profitable to vpip in, period. As a result, some might argue that being OOP, even though 3betting is not as profitable as 3betting IP, it's more profitable relative to the profitability of flat calling.

This is true, but I mostly think 3betting light a great deal OOP is not that good of an idea unless you're against a very exploitable opponent. Against players that are allegedly so weak, it's probably nearly as profitable to flat call those same hands and outplay them postflop-- even OOP, and it'd reduce your variance, too.

As for people folding hands that AQ dominate preflop? I think there are definitely a lot of fish who constnatly fold KQ AJ KJ type hands when I 3bet AQ, most notably nit regs. I do not think AQs is an auto 3bet at all. Against some I'd be happy to 3bet AJs for value, but I highly believe in a dynamic range.

It was mentioned that if they are folding all worse than AQ you should 3bet a super wide range...

... then the solution obviously is to 3bet a super wide range. Is there something wrong with that? BoboFittos says he 3bets something like 12% air OTB, not including nut hands, and about 16% in total. I am not advocating taking it that far, but yes, I do believe that it's okay to 3bet a LOT more air than value hands IP. If I were to 3bet a strong value range of QQ+ AK, then I'd 3bet maybe 7.8% air using the 3:1 air:nut ratio, which I am happy with, loosening depending on player, of course. In the middle, I will generally flat but sometimes 3bet: TT, JJ, AQ, AJs, and the rest of the value hands I would flat close to 100%. I would still be able to maintain a high 3bet without 3betting AQ ever. Even with 3:1, being IP is so strong that them calling AJ vs my 3bets is absolutely fine for me, and I don't necessarily have to adjust by 3betting AQ yet until he starts defending QJ or KJ and so on, because even my air range plays well vs his range, again, being IP.

As for the KTs hand, I think it's a snap call. It plays sick well postflop vs a button range. Loads of Tx or Kxs that we dominate. We're really happy with our hand. I do NOT want my villain to fold T8 by 3betting him off it. I am calling here. I think SO many hands go into this category to some extent that 3betting hands that are strong just loses you loads of value. Sure, if we 3bet AQ, he may calll with AJ AT KQ, but he will still fold QT or A6 or Q9s and so on, which we are crushing. As long as you're willing to lead turns or flops or c/r value, it's absolutely fine to flat these hands for value. There is more value to be gained postflop than preflop, especially vs horrible players.

Oh and this:

Yeah wow, KTs is an awful hand to 3bet vs normal players, idk what you can say. They are generally calling with like KJ QJ+ AT+, etc, a range that semi dominates you, and they fold most 9x hands, making 79 less often dominated and so on. How can you argue otherwise? KTs is a dominated hand and now you're bloating it? Sure it dominates their opening range, but do you seriously expect villains to peel T8o on a daily basis?

FWIW 79s is also a flat for me, and I'd much rather 3bet 46s and so on, since 79s is so playable.

This was probably towards me.

Value hands probably JJ+/AQ+ and mostly flatting the rest

Read the thread.

I 3bet TT+,AQo+ and sometimes 99,KQs,and AJs vs wider calling ranges. In the BB, it's okay to call with a good number of hands that will play well postflop OOP like A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,77-99 as a default. I would generally keep my offsuit hands to a minimum. Like KQ and AJ only. That said, I think you should start 3betting your highest equity hands beyond that calling range. For me, these are usually Axs and Kxs hands some % of the time and less often worse suited cards.

Saying that it is better to 3bet 79s than K9s OOP is silly. What is domination, really? How much equity does 79s have vs KQs than K9s does? What about vs a range of hands which will probably include PPs 99-JJ at least?

You're right that KTs does slightly better against a 3bet calling range than 97s but it's a waste. You have gone from ahead to behind, whilst at least with a hand like 46s/97s you're folding out better hands.

K9s which is a hand I don't call with. I open a lot of Kx hands but only K9o and K8s. I know some may open lower Kings but I feel K9s is not a good call vs a decent range.

Thanks for helping me identify a leak!

Same for me., my SB/BB 3-bet is higher then my BTN/CO 3-bet.
Working on it

If villain has a smaller advantage in a bigger pot the SPR might be better for you, that doesnt mean your overal EV changes for the better when the pot grows

This is partly true

care to elaborate?