NL16 KQ another 3bet pot linecheck - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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NL16 KQ another 3bet pot linecheck

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11-30-2013 , 11:45 AM

TWhelan

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

MP: 97 BB
CO: 74.38 BB
BTN: 192.69 BB (VPIP: 26.14, PFR: 17.05, 3Bet Preflop: 8.11, Hands: 90)
Hero (SB): 131.75 BB
BB: 224.19 BB (VPIP: 24.32, PFR: 18.92, 3Bet Preflop: 15.79, Hands: 38)
UTG: 90.31 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, BB calls 8 BB, fold

Flop: (20.5 BB, 2 players) Q

Hero bets 12.88 BB, BB calls 12.88 BB

Turn: (46.25 BB, 2 players) 5

Hero bets 29.13 BB, BB calls 29.13 BB

River: (104.5 BB, 2 players) J

Hero checks, BB bets 89.81 BB, fold

Doing anything different here?

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11-30-2013 , 11:59 AM

CCM

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6,528

I'd shove river myself. As played, I guess he can't really have bluffs and he probably checks back kk/aa so fold

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11-30-2013 , 12:04 PM

lumileijona

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,020

Shove to get value from what? Give any reasonable calling range that we are ahead of.

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11-30-2013 , 12:18 PM

CCM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lumileijona

Shove to get value from what? Give any reasonable calling range that we are ahead of.

TT+,AJss,AJcc,AQ maybe 1 or 2 random other calls.

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11-30-2013 , 12:48 PM

ohsnapzbrah

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 3,940

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

TT+,AJss,AJcc,AQ maybe 1 or 2 random other calls.

-We don't beat TT or JJ
-QQ doesn't exist
-We don't beat AQ

My question is what the hell is he in the pot with? AJcc is really the only hand that could take this line that we beat. It's a crappy fold, but it's a fold nonetheless.

(I think if we're 100bb deep, we could bet bigger OTF and just shove turn given awkward river stack sizes. 130bb though sizes look good and makes folding OTR the best play)

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11-30-2013 , 01:04 PM

Deeepz

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 5,137

wp imo

edit: almost all draws have some SDV by the river that he will x/b a lot so x/c is bad and shoving too thin

we don't have a x/c range otr right? just asking

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11-30-2013 , 01:25 PM

Swanndogg

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,914

I would bet bigger flop and turn to make it easier for our river shove to get called. His calling range is pretty polarized on both streets and our bet sizing doesn't change that much.

As played, the only things he really gets to river with that weren't beating us on turn are now beating us because of that J (JJ, AKss, QJ). I doubt he is turning AJss, AA, KK into a bluff, because we most definitely have Qx in our range and he probably doesn't know we are capable of folding. So river looks well played.

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11-30-2013 , 01:29 PM

Swanndogg

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,914

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deeepz

wp imo

edit: almost all draws have some SDV by the river that he will x/b a lot so x/c is bad and shoving too thin

we don't have a x/c range otr right? just asking

No (barring like a 20BB bet from villain), because of your second sentence, which sounds right to me. Even us under betting the pot is suspect as he might end up saying what the hell and shove w. AA/KK stuff because our underbet looks weird, and I think we have to call off a shove when he does that. So c/fold really becomes the only reasonable line here.

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11-30-2013 , 02:08 PM

Franchise804

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,274

Flat pre because it keeps villains range wider and our hand is strong enough to flat OOP imo. As played, don't we have enough busted fd's and villain enough Tx to make shoving river alright?

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12-01-2013 , 08:32 AM

#10

TWhelan

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise804

Flat pre because it keeps villains range wider and our hand is strong enough to flat OOP imo. As played, don't we have enough busted fd's and villain enough Tx to make shoving river alright?

I have started 3betting this pre a lot more, especially in SB. Every KQ thread where someone 3bets people say to flat pre, and every time anyone flats everyone says to 3bet pre

.

I am more concerned about villain's range in this spot rather than the fact I can shove draws. He won't really have many draws himself imo and I think he will fold Tx to a shove or check it back.

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12-01-2013 , 11:08 AM

#11

lumileijona

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,020

If we check the river it doesn't mean we lose the pot. Expect him to check behind w Tx Jx and pocketpairs.
C/c here is better than shoving because he does have some missed draw though the J completed a lot of them and once in a while he can turn a made hand into a bluff.
But shoving is IMO just bad. The board is scary enough for him to fold Tx Jx and underpairs when even AK got there. Different story if he was a fish. There is no value left. Check.

c/f>c/c>shove

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12-01-2013 , 11:40 AM

#12

Franchise804

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My problem with c/cing the river is that villain can just raise the flop with their draws so I think villains range is more showdown oriented. I also don't think villain has many hands in their turn calling range weak enough to turn into bluffs. Villains river calling range > villains river betting range imo. Shove > c/c > c/f

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12-01-2013 , 11:57 AM

#13

lumileijona

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Again give villain a calling _range_ that we are ahead.

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12-01-2013 , 12:35 PM

#14

ForeverLearning

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 12,006

We don't need to be ahead though

Agree with check/folding, I don't think it's close

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12-01-2013 , 01:28 PM

#15

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,125

X/f river looks good. It should have a reasonable expectation because many people are going to take any pair here and think 'woo showdown value'.

3b pre is fine, flatting can be okay too.

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12-01-2013 , 01:32 PM

#16

TWhelan

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle

X/f river looks good. It should have a reasonable expectation because many people are going to take any pair here and think 'woo showdown value'.

Makes me laugh when people do that in a lot of spots. I am definitely guilty of it though.

Would anyone bluffshove Tx here btw? As either hero or villain

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12-01-2013 , 03:05 PM

#17

VantACoo-key?

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 3,119

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWhelan

Makes me laugh when people do that in a lot of spots. I am definitely guilty of it though.

Would anyone bluffshove Tx here btw? As either hero or villain

Probably plenty because people are starting to blindly ship their whole range in these spots lately ime. Coulda just been a weird 5-10k hand stretch where it happened to me lots tho.

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12-01-2013 , 03:58 PM

#18

Franchise804

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,274

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumileijona

Again give villain a calling _range_ that we are ahead.

Tx (including a misguided JT snapcall), the occasional pre slowplayed overpair, KJ that didn't raise the flop, possibly Q9s.

Hands that beat us: I feel like many of them raise before the river (including draws).

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