[NL10z] BvB Flop Battle (Bet/Raise/3Bet/...?) - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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[NL10z] BvB Flop Battle (Bet/Raise/3Bet/...?)

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03-05-2019 , 05:34 AM

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - €0.05/€0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: €14.91 (149 bb)
MP: €25.98 (260 bb)
CO: €3.58 (36 bb)
BU: €10.99 (110 bb)
SB: €10.00 (100 bb)
BB (Hero): €12.80 (128 bb)

Pre-Flop: (€0.15) Hero is BB with 8♠ K♥
4 players fold, SB raises to €0.24, Hero calls €0.14

Flop: (€0.48) 7♣ 8♦ 3♦ (2 players)
SB bets €0.24, Hero raises to €0.80, SB raises to €2.40, Hero?
__________

Raise flop yes or no? once he 3bets is it just a fold or do we want to continue IP?
Villain's a decent reg, fairly aggressive postflop.

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03-05-2019 , 07:31 AM

ChipsNcrisps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 4,946

start with a call

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03-05-2019 , 07:38 AM

DSA Stephen

adept

Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 1,022

This seems like such a standard flop call

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03-05-2019 , 07:57 AM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

You’re over repping your hand. If it was Q high or J high, say Jxx and you had KJo, I think solvers like raising some % of the time but an 8 high board when Villain has every overpair is just way too thin.

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03-05-2019 , 09:27 AM

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Mmm is it that wrong to mix some raises with 8x on a wet board? especially if we want to raise some fd/sd/combodraw, 87/88/77/33 isn't enough to balance I guess? or should we just lean more towards calling vs villain's range?

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03-05-2019 , 09:31 AM

ChipsNcrisps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 4,946

idk whats happening in this thread but raise flop is fine...
I think ppl have forgotten that this is bvb

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03-05-2019 , 09:36 AM

simplelessons

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Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,036

I don't think raising is that bad. Our hand almost always gets worse on future streets and V's range is very wide sb vs bb. Getting him to fold two overs is favorable, especially if we think he is aggressive and likely to barrel multiple streets with air.

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03-05-2019 , 09:36 AM

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipsNcrisps

idk whats happening in this thread but raise flop is fine...
I think ppl have forgotten that this is bvb

Dude you were the first to say "start with a call". :O
Am I being leveled?
Oh wait, maybe you were referring to the 3bet.

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03-05-2019 , 09:39 AM

ChipsNcrisps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 4,946

ye facing the 3bet...

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03-05-2019 , 01:56 PM

#10

drakelol

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 2,149

What's the worst hand we should be raising for value on this flop?

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03-05-2019 , 02:09 PM

#11

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

I’m not sure about this specific combo on the flop. We would obviously rather have a

in our hand and wouldn’t we rather have 98-J8? We have more equity when our kicker can backdoor into a straight draw or our

can backdoor into a Flush. So those would be raised first OTF.

Maybe we could split our range by just calling Q8-A8/raising 98-J8,because the Q-A our good barreling cards for our opponent? I don’t think I raise enough on flops like these, I’ll run a SIM on this spot when I get home and post it.

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03-05-2019 , 02:12 PM

#12

Flpmethntsdlr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 3,939

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakelol

What's the worst hand we should be raising for value on this flop?

This one probably.

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03-05-2019 , 04:17 PM

#13

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flpmethntsdlr

This one probably.

Which means we could actually let it go when villain 3bets.

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03-05-2019 , 08:48 PM

#14

Unsporting

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4,479

So we just give up all turns now bar K or 8?

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03-05-2019 , 08:53 PM

#15

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

This is why we don’t raise the flop. When we get 3bet we have no clue how to respond. We shouldn’t do much raising on this flop in general.

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03-05-2019 , 09:09 PM

#16

Unsporting

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4,479

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

This is why we don’t raise the flop. When we get 3bet we have no clue how to respond. We shouldn’t do much raising on this flop in general.

Precisely. Bizzare spot because the pots bloated and we hate all turns. Why not just flat and keep in his air balls and semi bluffs if he’s aggro

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03-05-2019 , 09:19 PM

#17

simplelessons

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,036

Because then we end up having to bluff catch with a hand that turns into 3rd pair most of the time.

We win so often with a raise that the rare times we get 3bet don't really matter. I think we can exploitatively fold to the 3bet because at these stakes the population doesn't balance correctly. If this guy happens to be balancing correctly we should be pretty indifferent to calling or folding with this hand.

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03-05-2019 , 09:24 PM

#18

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplelessons

3rd pair most of the time? So you’re just assuming an Ace/Queen runout? What about the times we call flop and the turn comes a K and our opponent barrels turn and river because a “King is better for his range.”

Solvers raise this flop like 6% of the time so effectively we should never raise flop here.

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03-06-2019 , 04:11 AM

#19

ChipsNcrisps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 4,946

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Solvers raise this flop like 6% of the time so effectively we should never raise flop here.

sure, but add in the fact that sb will overfold and under 3bet and all of a sudden we should raise quite often...

You hate getting 3bet argument is definitely not relevant esp in those stakes where that very rarely happens.

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03-06-2019 , 04:17 AM

#20

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipsNcrisps

Well one more reason to let this combo go and continue on with 2p/set/high equity draws.
Anyway I called and the hand went check/check turn and river on a couple of bricks. Villain showed KK.

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03-06-2019 , 04:20 AM

#21

ChipsNcrisps

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 4,946

You said he was aggro reg postflop? Im calling vs those individuals

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03-06-2019 , 04:29 AM

#22

Iblis

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Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChipsNcrisps

You said he was aggro reg postflop? Im calling vs those individuals

That's what I thought at the moment and what his stats said. But since K8 no diamond is the worst value raise in our range aren't we overcalling a bit when he 3bets?

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03-06-2019 , 04:36 AM

#23

SicilianTaimanov

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 850

Why is everyone so scared to bluff catch vs aggro player LOL

Sent from my SM-J730G using Tapatalk

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03-06-2019 , 05:41 AM

#24

Unsporting

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4,479

Quote:

Originally Posted by SicilianTaimanov

Why is everyone so scared to bluff catch vs aggro player LOL

Sent from my SM-J730G using Tapatalk

How is raising flop bluffcatching?

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03-06-2019 , 06:06 AM

#25

Iblis

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Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

He might be fairly aggro and we're bvb but I don't think that a nl10 reg will start 3betting flop and then barreling light that often. He checked two streets with KK after all.

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