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NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn

08-04-2008 , 06:15 AM
Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): $100.00
BTN/SB: $100.00

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 5 A
BTN/SB raises to $3, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($6.00) T 9 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, BTN/SB calls $10

Turn: ($36.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero ???

First hand played with Villain.

Should I have 3bet preflop? Raised the flop larger?

Turn - I have a lot of outs, but is the pot too small to shove here? Or is that standard?
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-04-2008 , 07:18 AM
I raise more on the flop because he could call a wide range with the odds you give to him.

I bet 26 on the turn since I think you have some FE here. If you had raise more on the flop, I would say that it's a tough spot on the turn because you have less FE after he said he wants to stay in the hand.
Shoving looks weak and spewy.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-04-2008 , 07:23 AM
i think a lot about first hand dynamics and I think you get played back a ton when it seems like you could be making a move.

If this wasn't first hand, I would always be leading turn. But since I think air makes up a hudge part of his range, and may shove over our turn bet...I almost like a c/r. I don't think he's ever mucking a T...but the c/r may add the 9 into his calling range.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-04-2008 , 08:47 PM
yep, check and if he checks behind, take a freecard. if he does indeed bet, just raise him and even if you're called you have a ton of outs. as whyzze stated: the first hand is always special and he might be trying to just outplay you. therefore you might have lots of FE on the turn.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 05:24 AM
I check raise the turn all in (well that would be my plan). If he checks you get a free card. If he bets you will be ahead of straight draws and flush turns some of the time and you will be shoving A high for value.

Tell your friends.

Edit: The main reason for the check raise is to try and extract from silly floats ldo.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 05:41 AM
i think this is one of those cases where a c/c, b/c, c/shove are all pretty decent options..
this is the case cause u got no reads at all on villain..
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 06:47 AM
bet big. $33 sounds about right. calling a shove. thats standard.

if you think he is itching to steal a pot you can CRAI. but make sure you actually have some FE. if the match is aggro youre getting called lighter than you think.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 08:25 AM
i don't like c/rai here because it looks ridiculous. i would never c/rai a set, 2p, or even tptk. c/rai looks like a draw and will either get a crying call or a snap call.

i also don't like leading here. if villain has a T or a 9, he's never folding here. if he has some pp 55-88 that isn't getting folded either. that 4 is just the worst hand to double barrel because it folds out nothing, and if you miss the river villain will take it away all day.

i think you just need to check here, and you'll be given a free card very often. i'd also raise somehwere between 18-22 on the flop, you don't really know where you're at after raising to 15.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoUnreal
i don't like c/rai here because it looks ridiculous. i would never c/rai a set, 2p, or even tptk. c/rai looks like a draw and will either get a crying call or a snap call.
I disagree. Against lots of aggressive players I would take exactly this line with a one of the hands you're naming above. but maybe that's exactly because i want to be called then because it looks a bit like a draw... i have to think about that, but i don't think that it's too bad. so what do you wanna do if villain bets? fold? call?
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimu
I disagree. Against lots of aggressive players I would take exactly this line with a one of the hands you're naming above. but maybe that's exactly because i want to be called then because it looks a bit like a draw... i have to think about that, but i don't think that it's too bad. so what do you wanna do if villain bets? fold? call?
call if i have the implied odds, otherwise probably let go. i dont really feel like there is much if any FE based on the board. i guess i could understand c/rai against an agressive villain who floats light. but i feel kind of like my hand is face up. against a solid villain, i'd c/c if given the odds, especially if i thought id get his stack if i hit the river.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 02:42 PM
alright. Well, I usually try to establish a wrong image as fast as possible, so that I can exploit it later. That's another reason for me to shove this turn. If he really calls, he will surely call my (weak looking) all-in moves lighter for the remainder of the match. Add to this that I still have a lot of outs if he calls and you have a good reason to shove the turn IMO.

OP: I think you see that there are several different ways to play this Lots of it just depends on the opponent. As this is the first hand, you really have to decide if you want to take a more dangerous, or a safer, more conventional way. Depends a bit on your style as well I think...
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 07:13 PM
I would have taken your exact line here, possibly check raising a little more on the flop, and I probably lead the turn here for ~ $28 or so. I would play a set that way. I think that looks like the strongest line. I don't think i'm really happy about calling a push here after the turn bet, but i'm doing it.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimu
alright. Well, I usually try to establish a wrong image as fast as possible, so that I can exploit it later. That's another reason for me to shove this turn. If he really calls, he will surely call my (weak looking) all-in moves lighter for the remainder of the match. Add to this that I still have a lot of outs if he calls and you have a good reason to shove the turn IMO.

OP: I think you see that there are several different ways to play this Lots of it just depends on the opponent. As this is the first hand, you really have to decide if you want to take a more dangerous, or a safer, more conventional way. Depends a bit on your style as well I think...
I've been getting hit and run so much lately that I don't think spewing off a bi inorder to set up an image is all that important at this level.

OP, with no reads, I think a bet on the turn is best and gives you the most implied odds for stacking him on the river if you hit. c/r ai on the turn looks so spewy to my cuz, if I were villain, why would you ecpect me to bet after you've showed so much strength. I'm (if I'm villain) either betting for value intending to call a shove or checking my hand on the turn. I really wouldn't expect villain to float a flop c/r so I don't think you have much fe w/ a cr shove. With 1st hand dynamics, I think it's hard to fold out any mediocre made hands.

A check/call on the turn is slighty better than a crai cuz I think it lessens your implied odds if you hit (except if you bd the str8). If the turn went check and a big bet from villain, you almost need to fold w/o the good odds.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 07:21 PM
check/calling sucks compared to the other options.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 08:45 PM
b/c is wayyy the best here. villain is never betting the turn with the plan of folding to a shove
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote
08-05-2008 , 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoUnreal
i don't like c/rai here because it looks ridiculous. i would never c/rai a set, 2p, or even tptk. c/rai looks like a draw and will either get a crying call or a snap call.

i also don't like leading here. if villain has a T or a 9, he's never folding here. if he has some pp 55-88 that isn't getting folded either. that 4 is just the worst hand to double barrel because it folds out nothing, and if you miss the river villain will take it away all day.

i think you just need to check here, and you'll be given a free card very often. i'd also raise somehwere between 18-22 on the flop, you don't really know where you're at after raising to 15.

Villains line looks like combo draw. I don't think you have much FE here, and when you CR the flop what are you trying to represent? overpair? If overpair you must lead out here, and hope that he'll respect the C/r.

Your hand is face up as one of 2 options IMO from the villain's perspective; an overpair or F or SD. as a result, I might try leading at this turn about 60% of the time, checking 40% of the time, and CRAI never! . The c/r showed strength, and the flatting by the villain indicates a possibly marginal hand, such as TPBK, which he's probably not folding if he has you on the draw, but you can't be sure, as he may have floated this flop with a worse FD or an SD.

I don't really like the larger C/R on the flop, as i see a lot of donks doing this with naked flush draws.. I've been inclined to get it in against a larger raise on boards like this when I've hit the flop, as a lot of the time my opposition is showing up with the draw... IMO.

Also agree with the comments that if you lead out, whiff the river, bet again and get called and get beaten here, then it's meta for the remainder of the session. You can balance the play out by C/R flops and leading turns with your overpairs and likely get looked up light later.
NL100 - Nut flush draw and gutshot on turn Quote

      
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