NL10 KQo - Do you ever fold this river shove? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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NL10 KQo - Do you ever fold this river shove?

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12-22-2017 , 01:25 AM

ldmariodl28

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 276

Subject says it all.. are you ever folding this river shove?

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
UTG ($14.03)
HJ ($9.84)
CO ($10.4)
HERO ($10.2)
SB ($21.91)
BB ($4.9)

Dealt to Hero Q

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, HERO Raises To $0.3 (Rem. Stack: 9.9), SB Calls $0.25 (Rem. Stack: 21.61), BB Calls $0.2 (Rem. Stack: 4.6)

Flop ($0.90) 3

SB Checks, BB Checks, HERO Checks

Turn ($0.90) 3

SB Checks, BB Checks, HERO Checks

River ($0.90) 3

SB Bets $0.5 (Rem. Stack: 21.11), BB Calls $0.5 (Rem. Stack: 4.1), HERO Raises To $2.9 (Rem. Stack: 7.0), SB Raises To $21.11 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.00), BB Folds, HERO Calls $7 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.0)

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12-22-2017 , 03:11 AM

Feng Shui

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 595

I'm not really sure there is a ton of value in raising the river .You'll get called by split pots and just pay extra rake. And get shoved on by 3x, your never getting called by worse. It seems strange to say just call river but that's what id do in this spot. I could find a fold on the river tbh i just don't expect any competent player to shove Qx vs us. Its a bit of a weird spot.

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12-22-2017 , 10:47 AM

Ishipit

enthusiast

Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 62

I think your mainly calling to a chop. SB doesn't have kk, aa in his range. Maybe once in a while you lose to A3s but I think that's pretty rare. I'm calling every time.

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12-22-2017 , 10:54 AM

dynamite2006

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 789

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feng Shui

This. Nobody is calling your raise unless they have at least a Q and so you're only setting yourself up to lose a bigger pot when beat or pay more rake when you chop.

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12-22-2017 , 10:56 AM

JamesBJames

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,791

I'm not sure if I raise river. It's weird. Villains should never have AA/KK/QQ/66/3x, but after we bomb river multiway and announce to the world "I definitely have at least Qx" it's not like they should call with worse either.

Depending on how fishy villains are, maybe we can raise smaller on river? I'm also thinking we should just call against unknowns.

As played, folding this OTR means we're folding everything in our range (and at least KQ blocks some of the KK combos that beat us, even though it doesn't make sense for SB to have KK)... so I guess I'm calling.

Weird hand.

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12-22-2017 , 11:29 AM

ImNotTiltling

enthusiast

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamite2006

This. Nobody is calling your raise unless they have at least a Q and so you're only setting yourself up to lose a bigger pot when beat or pay more rake when you chop.

I used to convince myself they were bluff shoving to steal with tt or jj in this scenario. Never. It's always a chop or a slowplayed aa, kk or quad. My experience says although it feels stupid, the smart move is to just call.

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12-22-2017 , 02:27 PM

.isolated

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBJames

As played, folding this OTR means we're folding everything in our range (and at least KQ blocks some of the KK combos that beat us, even though it doesn't make sense for SB to have KK)... so I guess I'm calling.

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12-22-2017 , 02:40 PM

Bladesman87

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

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12-22-2017 , 02:45 PM

Bladesman87

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

To elaborate, raising river is pretty sketchy at best and only really justifiable if you think they'll make some terribad bet/calls with 77/88 (and our sizing is way too large to ever really achieve that). To then think "I have to call off my stack because reasons" is throwing good money after bad.

I don't know how people get from "I made a really thin raise in a spot where I have 0 nutted hands" to "Now I have to worry about minimum defence frequencies".

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12-22-2017 , 02:56 PM

#10

JamesBJames

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,791

I agree that calling river is likely best, but assuming we do raise then I suppose I'm misapplying when to use MDF. Is it okay to fold 100% of our range in this spot?

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12-22-2017 , 03:10 PM

#11

Bladesman87

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14,543

The mistake that people make so often is to start applying these range principles too late in the hand. If we "shouldn't" raise because theory then we shouldn't worry about over-folding now. If raising river is an exploit then exploiting now is obviously the way to go.

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