I have been lurking on the forums for a while now, finally felt inspired to post a hand as I feel that every street presented many options and the hand was very interesting.

200 NL live today earlier in my local casino. I am 3 seats to the left of the big blind and make a raise of $16 with JcJs at a $1, $2, $3 blind level that they use there. The raise is my standard raise and nothing out of the ordinary for this game. A loose, passive yet very savvy and smart older guy I have played with a lot calls from the button and the BB also calls. Button and Myself have ~$800 behind, BB has ~$300

3 to the flop, Pot is $50.

Flop is Kd Kh 2d

BB checks, Hero Checks, Button thinks for a good 15 seconds, fumbles chips and bets $25.

BB folds, hero contemplates raising, but just calls.

Turn: Kd Kh 2d Ks (pot: $100)

Hero Bets out $50, Villian quickly says " I don't think you have the king" and smooth calls.

River: Kd Kh 2d Ks 4c (Pot: $200)

Hero checks, Villian thinks about ten seconds and bets $200 straight.

Hero???

More info: My image is very solid having only shown down big hands and not showing any bluffs. The villian is definately a calling station, playing alomst every hand but never getting it in bad as far as i know, and I have played with him many times and never seen him make any bluffs of this size. Also after he bets $200 he is talking saying he has to put pressure on me and thats why he loves this game and all this speech, which i noticed he does not do when he is bluffing. usually stays relatively quiet. Help me figure this out and also suggest any alternative ways to play the hand =D

welcome to the forums.

This IS a pretty interesting hand.

But for the "I don't think you have a king," speech, i think this is a pretty easy call as played.

As for how you might have played the hand differently: bet/fold for value all three streets.

as for the speech: "I don't think you have a K" in this spot usually means, "w00t! I haz teh quads." And I would be tempted to fold on this basis alone.

With a smart, savvy player, you have to assume he is putting you on a range. Since you opened UTG, you have a pretty strong hand, medium to high pps, AK, maybe AQ. On the flop, you checked. That eliminates AA. You'd want to bet that, because the callers would probably call one bet. You'd check AK and probably everything else 3 handed.

Mpethy is right about the verbal tell, but the fumble and small bet on the flop says big hand. Passive players don't bet out on the flop 3 handed without a great hand. The only great hand here is a king. I'm able to lay it down on the flop, but I'm a nit.

c/c and then donking is a nonstandard line. why did you take it? nothing completed on the turn so it can't be some sort of draw. by nonstandard i mean stupid. you arent showing any sort of consistency.

The exact reason I bet the turn was to look bluffy and inconsistent, which in theory was to induce spew on the river, however, the freakin instant call plus " i dont think you have the king" speech really threw me off from a player who almost never talks during a hand. I know that C/c, then donk turn looks incredibly weak and is not used that often, and i figured this was a perfect time to use it, as relative hand strengths were never going to change between the turn and the river.

As to the poster who suggested bet/folding for value on all three streets, don't you think that if I do that the pot will be too big on the river for me to lay down once he raises the river? ( assuming thats what he does.) further, As played, would anyone ever just continue to half pot donk on the river?

Welcome.

Why didn't you bet the flop?

The biggest reason I didnt bet the flop was because with the button being a huge calling station I believe he would call me with anything remotely resembling a hand, ace high, flush draw, a duece and even a king. I didnt think i would get any sort of valuable information by making a continuation bet there as I think he almost always calls me regardless of hand strength and I felt i needed information more than I needed to chase out anyone.

You want Ace High, a flush draw, any pair and a 2 to call your bet. You do not want them to fold. Even though it is not the reason to bet - you get just as much information by betting than by checking.

If the button will call your bet with Ax, flush draw, and a deuce, I would bet for value on the flop. Sure sometimes he has the king but more often he will be putting money into the pot while in very bad shape.

Didn't see Digger's post. I agree with what he said.

isnt that a good thing when you have jacks? bet for value.

How do i get any positive results by betting this flop? I think by checking I give my opponent a chance to begin to define his hand for me, as I have zero idea at the moment what he might have. If i bet the flop, im betting 30 in to fifty, he calls thats puts the pot at $110, and me with the initiative and no clue where I am in the hand, and being OOP against a really good calling station. I understand I want him calling with those hands. I really was almost 100% sure I was ahead in this hand until the turn speech and then the river pot bet. Anyone else agree that this sort of villians range is extremely weighted towards a king in this instance. I dont think he is capable of getting to this river and then betting it with air or the 2 pocket pairs that beat me. I think the only hands he gets to this river with and then makes that play with are Quads and maaaayyyybe 10's or 9's but highly unlikely, and i really feel like that would only be trying to invent a way for my hand to be good. Really think all indications pointed towards Quads, as unlikely as it is.

This made me smile because it's exactly how I assumed most live players to think; they bet for information and to chase out, but don't seem really concerned by value

What kinda weak/bluffy holdings are you trying to rep doing so?

Why would use that line as a bluff? for value? (on that board).

I understand what everyone is saying about betting for value here, but what sort of hands am i getting even 2 streets of value out of that I can beat? And upon further review i know what you guys are saying about what the hell am i repping on the turn...

If you guys are in villians shoes what sort of range are you putting me on on the turn, and do you ever make this river bet with a hand I can beat?

Truly, my plan was to look weak on the flop and then bet turn and river and get paid off by lower pairs and other stuff that I could beat, but his actions on the turn after I bet and his body language just made me re-think this line of going for value on the river. I think maybe I overthought this one just a little bit.

It might in fact be true that vs this villian there is only ever one st of value.
Frankly I dont know having never played him.
Vs some players there is a whole stack with their worse PP.


If I played JJ this way it would be to induce bets from worse hands from an aggressive bad player.

and in that case I would check/shove the river given the K and 4 are about the ideal turn and river from a WA/WB perspective

In fact as whole I think betting the flop and villian always folding to a turn bet is a pretty good outcome with our holding.

So, as played what do you do on river after villian bets 200?

What!?! For value?

You realize there is 500$ behind?

Wow

I'm asking an question, not offering an opinion, so don't shoot me down!

Wouldn't a good line be b/f 1/2 pot flop, c/c turn, b/f 1/2 pot river? IDK, just how i'd play it. With this line, he can't possibly raise you OTR without a Kx/AA/QQ hand. I'd be looking at his eyes though when the flop comes down and the turn card, looking for his eyes to widen and if he looks away quickly from the flop. This would indicate a K to me. If that was the case, i would c/bet 1/2 pot OTF, and if i pick up a sign on the turn c/f or c/c depending on bet size, if checked behind c/c or c/f river depending on bet size. As played, i'd lean to folding.

Edit: Scrap that, i have to call with the line you took. It's a cooler if he has a K. I'm not worried about AA/QQ.

Sounds like all of your reads, both betting patterns and physical, are telling you this guy has the case K. Often one of the problems with taking lines designed to induce a bluff are that we get what we asked for. Could it be possible villain is so convinced you're FOS that he "knows" he's ahead? Could your deliberately bad line have worked too well? I think I'd probably just call, unless he agreed to turn over a card and it's an A or Q (something he could have called PF with a king - I snap call if he shows me a 9 or T).

If I was to take a c/c flop lead turn line - it would be vs a very aggressive bad player.

So yeah for value.
Because vs that player there arent many Kx or better pairs.

But we still have to assume he's going to call 50%+ of the time with worst to justify a value raise.

Seems optimist since OP is not even convinced he should c/c.