1/2 live game, table is very loose passive. 8 handed, and 4 people per flop on avarage.

My table image after an hour is that of a maniac, while I'm actually playing TAG, ABC play. i've been getting pocket pair after pocket pair.

this situation comes up :

Hero in the smallblind with AKc, stack is 160

hero raises to 6x BB ( standard raise in this casino on the 1/2 tables )

four callers. two of those four will play any two cards and call if they hit any part of the board.

flop : KQJ rainbow.

This is a bit of a dillema for me, because I have four callers and a dangerous board. Its not unlikey that someone hit two pair or a straight draw, or even hit a straight allready. Chances are also very good that someone hit a pair with a medium/low kicker.

What do you guys do here ?

the pot is 51 and we're first to act.

I decide to bet 50 for value and to chase off any straightdraws, figuring it's more likely people hit a pair then two pair, and if there are made straights out there i'm toast anyway.

3 folds, one caller. Caller seems like a decent player, pays attention to the game and hasn't showed any bad moves.

turn is a 9, which made a few more straights possible.

I think about it for a while and check. the board is getting too scary.

Villain bets 50.


What is the best line on the flop, and on the turn as played ? Looking forward to replies !

I think I check the flop (or bet $30-35). I hate building a pot OOP here. as played c/f turn.

I would have bet slightly less on the flop (35-40) but that's nitpicking. You played it right - bet flop, check behind turn if the obvious draw hits. I am almost always c/f this turn barring some soul read.

I think your preflop raise was too small. I agree that $12 is often a standard raise in these live games, but usually just to open the pot or against one or two limpers in late position. Here, there are four players already in, and you're OOP. I'd raise to at least $17 here.

As played, I'm not sure of your math with regard to pot size. If you got four callers with a $12 raise, then there should be $60 in a 5-way pot.

Assuming there really was only $50 in the pot, I think a $30 to $35 bet accomplishes the same thing as a pot size bet on the flop. Checking to judge the action behind you has merit, too.

With respect to the turn, c/f as played. I definitely wouldn't lead this turn after betting the flop, getting called, and having 4 cards to a straight on the board.

Turn is tricky imo. If villain is a straight forward player, why would he call a pot sized bet on the flop and then bet into the player who is showing aggression with nothing? However, if you have a 'maniac' image, he might be looking you up with a weak Q or J. Another thing, he bet 50 into a 150 pot, and you have a little less than a 100 left, he might have flopped two pair or a straight and is betting 50 so he doesn't scare you too much and if you call, you're almost required to call for the rest of chips on the river.

When you bet 50 on the flop you're committing yourself. Even with one caller, your bet cant even be a pot sized bet.

Hand without a plan situation maybe.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Yeah I'm not sure about the ammounts in the pot because it was live without notes, and it was a few hours ago.

There was probably more in the pot but he did bet about a third.


I was really trying hard to plan the hand out before making bets, by the way. It was just so hard for me to balance between keeping the pot small and driving players out.

But maybe that just a big contradiction and its just an impossible situation ?


Oh, more info : After he bet on the turn I asked him "Will you show if I fold ?" to see if he got excited by that or if he would react startles ....

And he just shugged and said something like "uh sure

Loaded question:
Why are you c-betting pretty much a PSB on a very wet flop?

I'm asking because I think you should go through your thought process here.

because he is getting called by anyone holding a TEN, QT and JT are not folding, K9 may call a flop bet.

I fold. Probably bet a little less on the flop, like 35-40, still good value but you lose less when behind or you get drawn out on.

The pot size on the flop will be minus rake, so probably ~56, but maybe less if your casino takes out more.


Dude, I can't get over your avatar. That dog bouncing head over heals at ~30mph has me rolling!

HH is confusing...

I'm assuming there are 3-4 limpers, no? If ur reads are accurate then a bigger PF raise is definitely in order. What u've basically done is bloat a pot in which u are going to have multiple opponents OOP.

As played, once u bet $50 on the flop ur committed (to either stacking off or making a large mistake when u fold) therefore, don't do that! ($35 would be fine.) The 9 ****s u... period! Now u have to fold which as stated above, is a mistake (as u've put over 1/3 of ur stack in and then folded.) Don't build a big pot unless ur willing to stack off. GL

I really hate donking into 4 players on a wet board like this with top top and I hate leaving less than a PSB behind even more of you get even one caller which you most certainly will with a board like this. If you want to plan this hand out with what you left behind you need to know whether you want to shove or fold to any raise or any turn card. I agree that a bet of 30-35 is probably best but I wouldn't hate checking the flop

right but all hands that beat you are calling and some are raising here as well.

You can do the same and save yourself a few bucks by betting 70% of pot on flop or even 65% say.

Additionally, and i think this was already mentioned - but im not leading into 3 players on this baord. This makes your PSB effectively a blocker bet, but an improperly sized blocker bet. you're up ****'s creek when raised, and forced now continue on the turn since if you get called and dont follow through, you'll have a hard time calling down any bet on turn and river.

TPTK on this board is not a get your stack in hand unless you are certain villains are getting their money in with less.

I honestly say this is pot control time - check and hope to see free turn.

If i do lead, its not for a pot sized bet though, sure you're saving is small but over enough hands its significant.

Its hard to give advice when we don't know stack sizes and the positions of the other players etc.

At a loose passive 1/2 table like this with $160 and oop I would recommend either of the following two approaches:

- Raise big like to $22 (we only want one or two callers) and play aggressively on most non- wet boards.
- Just complete preflop and play passively and hope to hit a well concealed monster.

As played, I think I would check the flop vs passive players and hope to check it down. Its just a really unfortunate board. I'm going to assume the opponents are passive fish. Its not that easy for us to represent the nuts, there are lots of random 2 pair hands that will 'reluctantly' call an allin shove but at the same time will be too scared to bet for value with the straight out there. If we bet and get 2 calls, the pot will become bigger than our remaining stack and we will basically have to decide whether to commit or not on the turn without knowing where we stand in the hand. Once the turn card comes putting 4 to a str8 on the board, I'm basically done with the hand unless villain bets very, very small and I have a read that he will not bet big on the river.

The normal rules of good TAG poker don't apply when you're playing against passive live fish. Again I'm going to assume we are playing against passive stationy fish. Against better fit or fold conservative players, if we had a nitty image and were headsup or with only 2 opponents we could bet this flop because our opponents can put us on KK, AA, AK etc and might think we're never folding to a reraise given that we've played so few hands.

I'm bet/folding half pot on the flop, and check/folding any turn. Betting turn gets you pot committed so meh easy fold imo.

160 - (12 + 50) = 98 [160 / 62 = ~39%]

(5 * 12) + (50 * 2) = 160

(160 + 98) / 98 = ~2.6 to 1

So u have to be right about 28% of the time to stack off (which ur probably not but...)

...point of all this? Flop bet commits u to the pot (or to making a big mistake when u fold.) U are probably not good here very often so u have to fold which, after u put almost 40% of ur stack in the middle, is a big error.

Bigger raise PF required or complete and look to surprise somebody post (great for meta as well.)

In hindsight I fell in love with my AKo and just couldn't fold after hitting, eventhough it was such a horrible flop for me.

So everyone is basically agreeing that I shouldn't have bet that flop at all ?

How do you guys of think the range of a hands villain is likely to hold ? Am I correct in my guestimate that his range of hands that I beat is wider then the range that has me crushed ?

And how about the dead money in the pot ?



Also, sorry for the poor hand history. Ofcourse I don't have a raw history that I can neatly feed into a converter With "stack is 160" I means "effective stack" as everyone had me covered.
Position should be obvious though, I was the small blind so everyone was behind me. It was folded to villain... so what's not clear here ?

position post is obv. but ur making us guess if 3 or 4 people limped and whether the BB called or not.

what most people here agree with is that ur raise should be bigger (especially at the table u described.)

raise more preflop, bet less on the flop. I'd probably fold the turn.

OK, I understand. Thanks everyone !

For the curious, here's how the hand ended ( I played the turn badly )

Read it it's pretty funny.

Don't call the turn if you're going to fold the river.

Haha you have to love live poker.

Yeah, that was the worst call for sure.

Classic case of wishfull thinking : "If I just flat here, he might check on the next street and I can see a cheaper showdown "

I'm not making you guess, I'm asking you to deduce

If it's not clear : by four callers I mean four limpers who then my preflop raise.

What does it matter what position villain is, he's behind me. The rest folds.... Like Tommy Angelo says, there's really only two positions, last and not-last.

If the whole table limps and you raise to 6 BB in the SB and you get 4 callers that's different than if 3 limp and the BB calls.

If villain is UTG and he's competent he's less likely to have something like QJo.

...didn't he also say something about folding in a ~$310 pot for ~$50 on the river w/TPTK?