KQs BvB vs a very paranoid reg - Page 4 - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

I think preflop this hand is just a mandatory call. What you decide to do 4betting/calling-wise totally depends on what he does vs those actions, but I couldn't imagine 4betting kqcc hoping to get it in or gambling on him calling. Hand just isn't that strong allin preflop/putting a lot of money in preflop in general.

Quote

01-29-2012 , 09:41 AM

#78

duedrama

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 134

Quote:

Originally Posted by disinformation

I wish I could copy and paste the section on 3 bet pots in SSNLHE here, but essentially that is exactly what they say.

This is what makes light 3 betting a polarized range so profitable. If people adjust by calling and playing fit or fold you can absolutely murder them over many medium sized pots.

Then when they do have a hand you do not pay them off as you have complete air.

In good shape were my exact words

but yeah, we're definitely not crushed.

Yes, we will definitely get 1 cbet out of him in these situations.

The argument in SSNLHE is that in these situations we do not make enough to counteract the times we miss and check/fold if we're playing fit or fold.

We will make money when he bluffs and we have something, but over the long run that doesn't make up for the losses we incur in the pots when we miss.

Surely by this reasoning then he will be c-betting 100% of flops, assuming you'll be playing fit or fold post flop - but you say he isn't paying off on the many times he has complete air and you hit.

So if you float any pair/combo draws/some air 1 street and he misses the board then he is definitely giving up on most turn card and checking it back.

Shove the river and he has to fold.

It seems like your being exploited by an unwillingness to adapt to different player types.

Quote

02-01-2012 , 01:25 PM

#79

mentatat

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 646

Ed Miller made a post about this thread:

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/n...r+Authority%29

Quote:

Calling 3-Bets Out Of Position
Oh boy. Someone pointed me to a thread in the microstakes forum at 2+2. In the thread, the poster has KQs in the small blind in a 25NL 6-max game. It’s folded to him preflop, and he 3x raises. The big blind 3x 3-bets. Blind versus blind. The poster 4-bets small and gets called. The flop is J-T-7 two-tone (no backdoor draw for our hero), and the poster check-shoves the flop and gets snap-called by KJ.

The poster’s comments about the opponent was that this guy 3-bets light a lot and he’s a suspicious player.

The poster’s commentary is that flat-calling the 3-bet is “****ing awful”, and he cites my book Small Stakes No-Limit Hold’em as his source for why this is such a terrible play.

Let me start out by saying that if there ever were a place where it is a-ok to flat-call a 3-bet from OOP, this is it. (In fact in modern no-limit games there are plenty of places where flat-calling 3-bets both in and out of position is fine.) I would tend to call in this situation more than anything else.

It is true that in SSNLHE we warn against flat-calling 3-bets from out of position. The biggest problem with doing this is that, too often, when players do it, they make two major postflop errors. First, they mentally give their opponents credit for holding a legitimate 3-betting range rather than the wide range that light 3-betters have. Thus, they tend not to give their own hands enough credit, and they underplay. Second, they tend to play a fit-or-fold strategy postflop. If they fit, they want to shovel all the money into the pot. If they don’t “fit” according to their definition, they’re looking for the first opportunity to fold. The problem with this is that most people’s definition of “fitting” a flop is too narrow, and they end up putting big bucks in preflop and then giving up too often. Basically, they’re calling the 3-bet, but then just folding WAY too often on the flop or turn. Furthermore, they’re calling the 3-bets with too many small card hands that will be begging to fold once the flop comes.

Here’s the thing. In a blind versus blind battle against a notoriously light 3-bettor, KQs is a legitimate monster hand. There’s no question it’s worth playing against a light 3-betting range from the blinds. Now when I’m deciding whether to flat-call or to 4-bet preflop, I’m going to think about how my opponent is likely to make mistakes responding to my action. I tend to find that most players at the 25NL level will make more and more significant mistakes playing the 3-bet pot (even when they have position) than they will in responding to the 4-bet with a hand like this one, so I’m more inclined to just call the 3-bet.

If there’s a hand that makes something on more flops than KQs, I’m not sure what it is. Something is as little as overcards and a backdoor flush draw. When your opponent is aggressive and has wide ranges, flopping something with KQs gives you license to continue in the hand. Again, how you continue depends on the sort of mistakes your opponent is likely to make. If your opponent is going to make too many folding mistakes after the flop in the 3-bet pot, then I would consider lines that involved semi-bluffing the flop or turn. (E.g., donk betting the flop, check-shoving, betting the turn if the flop gets checked through, etc.)

If my opponent is suspicious, however, and unlikely to fold incorrectly, then I’m often going to try to extend hands through to the river. Getting to the river will allow my hand value advantage to play out because it maximizes the chance of seeing a showdown. Getting to the river also helps me because my opponents tend not to read hands well once the board gets crowded. I’m going to make a lot of money against a suspicious opponent when I catch a king or queen and get paid two postflop streets of value… sometimes even getting stacks in by the river. I’ll also be able to find spots where my opponent’s turn play turns his hand face-up and I can bluff profitably. (Even suspicious players don’t look you up when they have air.)

Basically, against a light 3-bettor who is also suspicious and doesn’t like to fold early in the hand, I’m going to rely on the preflop hand strength of KQs to justify early bets preflop and on the flop. Then on the turn and river I’m going to rely on my (hopefully) superior hand-reading to find value and bluffs where appropriate. This is, of course, aided by the fact that my starting hand is quite good.

Bottom line, when people 3-bet you really light in position, you have to have an out of position calling range. Suited big card hands are probably the perfect hands for this range, since they hit so many flops and they flop top pair often allowing your opponents to value-own themselves. Even on a rag flop with a backdoor flush draw you might take the 3-to-1 odds and float out of position looking for something positive to develop on the turn or river. (Either good cards or your opponent taking a line that betrays weakness.)

When your opponents are aggressive and bloat pots with light 3-bets and auto-flop c-bets, you have to get sticky with them. You can’t just fold all day long. You have to gamble. As long as your hand compares well to your opponent’s actual range (rather than the range you’re scared of), you’ll be fine. Yes, there’s variance. And yes, you’ll have runs where your opponents outflop you a bunch of times and you lose X buyins real fast. That’s modern no-limit.

But as long as you’re willing to hang in there and not just call preflop and check-fold flop, calling 3-bets out of position can be just fine.

Quote

02-01-2012 , 01:32 PM

#80

chiego

banned

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 3,703

cliffs: these days people 3bet polarized instead of static valuerange, flatting plays better vs those ranges than 4bet or fold

Quote

02-01-2012 , 01:33 PM

#81

Ksight3

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 15,465

Owned.

Quote

02-01-2012 , 03:14 PM

#82

DumbBlondeXOXO

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 692

Calling or 4betting is fine pre... it make it a bit bigger though. OTF id bet like 1/3pot his pf range is probs quite wide because of position/betsize and we have equity when called, jamming over a raise is pretty marginal with your read that hes a non-believer type.